Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and optimal HR-v. Check us out at optimal hr-v dot com. Please enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Welcome friends to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. We are on chapter two of our series with the heartbeat of business. Uh, so if you're just joining us for the first time, uh, highly encourage you to go back a few weeks, um, you know, to episode one of this series, uh, we are playing the chapters of our audiobook. Uh, we had a great, um, audiobook producer, uh, voice for this. So I I really love sharing those, uh, with folks. So, uh, we are on chapter two, so yeah, get the full experience. Go back to episode one. Uh, listen, before the intro in chapter one, we'll get you all caught up. But I'm really excited to have this conversation with Ina and Dave today about chapter two, as as we work on understanding health and wellness with heart rate variability, uh, many ways. Uh, this is the chapter that really motivated, uh, me to talk about writing this book with the two of you, because I really think, especially in a time of probably, uh, off the chart, unprecedented burnout and hardships at work and in the rest of our lives, uh, to me, this is sort of the core, uh, piece of looking at heart rate variability.
Speaker 1 00:01:54 So in this chapter, we look at both the individual and the group health. Um, then we're gonna talk about both today with a particular focus on the group side of things because, uh, we, we have probably, I think, 81, uh, episodes where we really focus on the individual piece. So we're gonna focus a little bit more about bringing this into the organizational, uh, development. Now, if you have a group, uh, let's say you've got a group you're working out with at the gym and you're sharing data, you know, you can think about it in that context as well. But we'll think specifically a little bit about the workplace, uh, as we go through, uh, chapter two as well. Soa, I wanna start with you because I wanna talk about states and traits. Uh, this is something that I've been obsessed with ever since. Uh, you know, when I posted, uh, when I was doing the Trauma Informed Lens podcast, uh, my learning curve, when I got introduced to heart rate variability.
Speaker 1 00:02:51 And what I was really kind of struggling with at first is, is this measuring my overall health and wellness? Or is heart rate variability measuring how I'm doing today? And I came to the conclusion of the answer is both, but the metrics, I'm looking at different data to answer that question. So, I, I wanna sort of kick it to you, uh, with the idea of a state being more, how am I doing today? How am I doing right now? Traits being metrics of overall health and wellness. A and I'll, I'll kick it to you cuz I, I, I love hearing you talk about how heart rate variability can really quantify, uh, both of these if we are looking at the right things.
Speaker 2 00:03:39 Absolutely. It's, it's a great question. A really important distinction that I think people really need to, um, keep in mind when tracking and measuring their H R V. So when you take your heart, your ability on any particular warning, uh, it tells you how are you doing at that moment? You can use it to give, uh, to give you an idea of how the rest of your day, you know, might go mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Uh, but it, that's probably about it, right? You know, so your indicator on that, on that one day really tells you about that moment and maybe the rest of the day gives you some idea of how to plan that day, um, in order to, uh, get an idea of how you are functioning overall, right? So you get an idea of your trait, um, hardship ability, and you really need to, uh, do a decent amount of tracking, uh, I would say five to seven days of daily reading.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 So we'll give you a much better idea of your trait, um, hardship ability. Uh, any one of these readings is a state H r v. Um, and it's influenced by a myriad of different factors, right? You know, how well you slept the night before, how late, uh, you know, you went to bed, uh, you know, how many drinks you had the night before. You know how, you know, how stressful your day was, you know, et cetera. All sorts of things. Um, go into that one reading. And therefore, I knew one reading is really not a very reliable way of telling you how are you doing overall. Yeah. Um, but if you get a collection, say, you know, five to seven days, you're gonna start getting an idea of how are you doing? Cuz uh, you know, all these, uh, um, outliers, uh, and, uh, um, gonna one time type, uh, type of influences are going to get, you know, washed out in that, in that average.
Speaker 2 00:05:26 So you're gonna, uh, five to seven days is, is a, is a good place to start. Uh, I still would caution you, you know, this is, you know, even your week long average might have been influenced by, you know, you just, you are recovering from some sort of virus, right? Or you've had already, you know, months long, uh, really difficult period at work. Uh, and all of that is going to influence your weekly I v it may not still, it may still not be entirely accurate indicator of, you know, know how are you doing overall. Uh, so the more measurements you have, the more accurate your estimate of your trait, um, uh, H R V and therefore your trait ability to self-regulate and be resilient and adapt to change, uh, is, uh, but I, you know, five to seven days is a really good place to start.
Speaker 1 00:06:18 Great. Dave, I just wanna see if you have anything to, to, to add to that Ina gave us, kicked us off really strong there with that answer. But anything else that you, in your work, sort of think about this state trait and, and how you help, uh, people live healthier lives?
Speaker 3 00:06:37 Um, yeah. Yeah. So the, um, well, I, I guess, you know, to echo what Eno is saying there with, uh, you know, a single reading, um, you know, we can't, we can't really tell much from, and, uh, and even a couple readings, we have to, we have to have that, we have to have that average going. And, uh, and the more we have of that, the better. Um, so when you, when you really start to look into, you know, the weeks, the months, uh, the years, that's where we can really start to draw a lot of conclusions. And, um, and it's always one of those, uh, and I think the book does a great job of saying this too. Uh, you know, when, when a single day reading is different, is that something that we have to be scared of mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And, uh, and that's something that I get, you know, that patients will ask about, um, you know, or <laugh> or, or my mom will ask about sometimes what do I do now? <laugh>?
Speaker 3 00:07:28 Yeah. And, uh, and, and you go, well, how are you doing? You know, what, what is going on? What is the context of this? And then we get into, um, you know, and then we begin to really understand when we begin to add context, uh, to a reading, which is huge, which is why we have, uh, you know, the tags on our app. Uh, which is why I encourage people to, uh, to do journaling in addition to. Cuz once we get that context along with a good trend, um, then we can really start to make a good call there. Um, and, uh, and simply, it, it really is, uh, you know, the more data that we have, the better we can, uh, we can predict or tell what is going on. And, um, and Iena, I do like that you said, uh, you know, a single day reading can, uh, can tell you about, you know, that state of how you are doing right now and how a day may go.
Speaker 3 00:08:21 Uh, and it's also a great indication to say, to say, all right, well, you know, what, what can I do right now to change this? You know, just because I woke up this way doesn't mean that my day has to be bad. Um, and equally just cuz you wake up doing really well doesn't mean that your day is gonna go awesome. Um, you know, if you, uh, if you front load that with <laugh>, something horribly stressful, uh, you know that that can absolutely, uh, tear you down. Um, and, uh, and vice versa, right? If you, uh, if you wake up in a poor state, um, you know, can you do something about that? And the answer is absolutely yes. Uh, you know, and we get into some of that later chapters in the book on how you can actually, uh, pull yourself out of something, something negative. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:09:04 So I love in this chapter, because this is what I, I like, what, what excites me about innovation is you hit these ethical dilemmas, uh, and being part of the innovation around biometrics, you hit these things. And, and one of the ones that I've, I've wondered about, I love to get both of your opinion, I'll start with you, is for me to get up and my heart rate variability isn't great today. What's on my agenda? It's like that I recorded online video. I gotta do a podcast with two of my good friends. I gotta walk the dogs. Maybe I get to the gym to do an old man workout. You know, that's being pretty, I'm probably not gonna hurt myself or anybody else today. Even if I screw something really bad up. Uh, probably not going to hurt anybody. However, let, let, so lemme throw this out here.
Speaker 1 00:10:02 I don't want a surgeon necessarily operating on me if I'm in, if my H R V is 80% of what it normally is, I don't really wanna get on a plane with a pilot who's H R V has crashed. I, I worry about people like police officers whose decisions can be life and death, because when we're talking about, you know, surgeons, a 10% area in surgery could kill me, uh, a mistake. Uh, they've done interesting studies with police officers, I've seen with heart rate variability is when they do that thing where things pop up and the guy decide to shoot or not, I'm sure there's a name for that low heart rate variability. They don't make as good as decisions. And in the real world, you might be that person that could be dangerous or not. And so, in, I'd love to get, as we hit our kind of first ethical dilemma here in this, what are your thoughts on this about Yeah, for me it's a, a bad day is not, it's not a big deal. However, for certain occupations, it, it could be if we wanna just get over dramatic for dramatic purposes, a life or death sort of scenario,
Speaker 2 00:11:18 Eh, what a good question. And, uh, you know, realistically speaking, and it is a little scary, right? You know, if a police officer wakes up with, you know, 80% of their typical H R V, are they gonna call out of work? No. Are we not? Yeah. Right. You know, is a surgeon or a pilot going to call out of work? No <laugh>. That's, uh, um, so I guess we would probably prefer not to think about that <laugh>, but, um, uh, as Dave said, um, you know, a lower number, um, and your morning reading is not a guarantee that your day is shed and you're gonna kill somebody, right? Yeah. Uh, it, it does tell you though that you wanna be a little more careful. Uh, it's probably a good idea to, uh, to take a little extra time that morning to do some H R V by feedback training.
Speaker 2 00:12:10 Uh, you know, is it, uh, going to like completely reverse, uh, how your day is gonna go? Probably not, but it is going to remind your body how to regulate itself. Um, this is particularly helpful if you already have a well-established H R V biofeedback, uh, practice. Yeah. You know, if you do your 20 minutes a day, six, seven days a week, um, and, um, that one day when you're waking up with your H I V being a little bit lower, maybe including an extra session, um, your, your body will take that as a good reminder and it will help you self-regulate just a bit better. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, uh, maybe you take a little time to, to meditate, uh, you know, maybe you pay attention to your breakfast that morning a little bit better than you normally would. You know, all of those little things really do add up.
Speaker 2 00:13:02 Um, and, you know, maybe, you know, if possible you take some extra breaks, um, that day, maybe you take a few minutes before you know, you start that surgery or, you know, before you get on the plane, uh, to, um, you know, do another, um, h I V practice. So there's small ways, uh, that you can mitigate, uh, those, uh, lower numbers. But you also, even just the awareness, um, that I may not be entirely at my optimal goes a really long way. Uh, it'll help people be a little bit more attentive to their internal states. It'll help them, uh, pay slightly different attention to their decision making process. You know, I know, you know, I've had days, uh, and I, granted, I, it's, these are not life or death situations, but, you know, when, when sitting with patients, I certainly wanna be at my best.
Speaker 2 00:13:56 And, you know, just like a surgeon's not gonna cancel their day if their H I V is a bit lower, you know, I don't cancel my patients if I am, you know, waking up not feeling at my best, but I'm aware of it. Um, and I might take a few extra seconds to think through my answer when we're talking about, you know, something particularly tricky. Uh, you know, or if I have to, he help, uh, somebody navigate through a difficult decision, uh, I'll be paying better attention to my own decision making process. So that awareness in itself goes a very long way. Um, along with the little things that, you know, if you do a few of those little things, they might add up to a fairly, uh, significant difference in how and how are you doing.
Speaker 1 00:14:37 Yeah. Dave, I'm gonna challenge you even more with this. Okay. So now I'm the supervisor and I see my surgeon is not doing well today, but I wanna say my surgeon hasn't been doing well for a week. Is there any point, you know, as sort of the medical person in the group, and I know you're not doing surgery, but if you think about the airplane pilot or you think about the police officer, you think about, you know, the surgeon. Do, do you have any idea when should we be worried because maybe a red day for a pilot and a bad day for a pilot? Ah, probably get us up and down. There's a co-pilot there. Probably gonna be okay. Uh, uh, a week's worth the bad scores. I might be a little bit more. So, so do you have any suggestions for supervisors of, you know, now we get this data, which I think is a really good thing because it, it was happening whether we knew it or not. Now, now it's explicit. Um, w do you have any suggestions about how to think about once those scores, two days, three days, four days a week worth of really bad scores?
Speaker 3 00:15:56 You know, th this is a very difficult dilemma. I, yes. Cause as a supervisor, you sit there and you say, if this pilot doesn't fly, we're losing all of this money. Right? Exactly. I, exactly. And, uh, or we have to call in back up. And that may be, you know, that might be worse. <laugh>. Yes. You know, um, so, uh, so it, it's, it's a, it's a very challenging thing to make a call on, but what we do know is yeah, I, you know, when you start showing, you know, two, three, you know, especially moving into four more days of trending down. Yeah. I, you know, your reaction time is down, your mental performance is down, your physical performance is down. Um, so, you know, the likelihood that something is going to go wrong just keeps going up and up and up. So, you know, well, what's it worth?
Speaker 3 00:16:45 If something goes wrong on an airplane, what's it worth if something goes wrong during a surgery? Um, you know, and we're not talking about little things in cases like that, you know, or a, or a police officer, for example. Um, you know, these are, these are things that, that can potentially be life or death situations. And, um, and in that case, you know, it, it may be best to say, Hey, let's have you take the day off and we will bring in the backup pilot. Um, and also that is not just take the day off, but it is, it is a lot more of, Hey, what's going on, man? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, are, are you getting sick? Is there stress in your marriage? Your, you know, your home life? Is there, is there something more happening? And, and, um, and I go on and on about this, uh, quite a bit, but, uh, that's what I love about H R V is that it takes the focus off of the immediate thing that is, you know, always right in front of you.
Speaker 3 00:17:43 Well, what's wrong with you, man? You know? Yeah. Why aren't you tough enough? Yeah. Um, yeah. It's, it's no longer that it is, Hey, let's look at this person for everything they are, because all of that is playing into how they're performing here. Um, and as a leader, you have to understand that, that what happens everywhere in this person's life affects how they perform in their job. So, so if you are a good leader and you do take that time to say, Hey, what's going on? Maybe you can help them find the proper resource, right? Uh, and, um, and a solution to a potentially much bigger problem. Um, so I think, uh, I, I think that that is a good place to go. Uh, you know, and then of course, as we go back to the original question of, well, do you tell 'em to not fly <laugh>?
Speaker 3 00:18:28 Do you tell 'em to? And, uh, and I think, you know, if if we were really being scientific and we were really looking at the science that it would, it would back up and it would support saying, no, let's, let's have a plan B in place here. Um, you know, let's, let's have a backup pilot, hopefully who's also being monitored, um, <laugh> and, and is in a good place to go. Um, and I, and you know, that's actually, I'd like to use a great example that, uh, that just came up. My neighbor, uh, uh, um, who's on, you know, they're, we're relatively close to them. Um, he is in his sixties and he was going in for surgery. Uh, he was, uh, having a, um, uh, some kind of modification, not a hip replacement, but a, uh, some kind of modification to his hip. And, um, and anyway, he was going in for the surgery and, uh, about two days before he caught a cold and he was, and he was sick, and he told his surgeon that, and may chose to go ahead with the surgery anyway, and the recovery should have been very quick, and it should have been very easy.
Speaker 3 00:19:33 Now we're almost three weeks out and his recovery is going horrible. Oh, and you ask, is that because his heart rate variability is down, was down, he was that stressed, you know, and this is not no longer the surgeon, but the patient, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative> the patient wasn't in a good place. So was it the right decision to still do that surgery? Had he not been sick and his nervous system not been challenged that much already, would he be in a totally different spot three weeks out in his recovery? You know? And, um, and that's again, you know, where we look at this, what call do you make? Because he had been waiting months for that surgery. So, you know, it's, uh, it's tough. But if recovery would've gone better, would that have been worth it? Right? I'd say
Speaker 1 00:20:19 Probably for the patient, for sure. Right, right. Yeah. And, and I think that, that, this is the world we are coming to th this world is, I, uh, you know, you look at what the biometrics, uh, big tech conference going out, I've been paying attention to, to the health tech that's out there, uh, pretty soon your toilet is going to give you feedback. Your clothes are gonna give you feedback. I mean, we're gonna have all this data, which really can make surgeries more effective, can make society safer. I mean that the police, when working with I've, I've worked with some police forces. I mean, just what do you do with that as a, as a police chief, knowing that you have a can get access to this data? And that data is going to be somewhat, has been proven to be predictive of decision making in high stress situations.
Speaker 1 00:21:14 There's a dilemma. And I, I just think in a, what we wanna put on the radar, cuz this isn't the only dilemma presented in this chapter, is it's something to think about. A, as you look at this, uh, piece, uh, of things and, you know, we provide, you know, in a, definitely with optimal H R v, one of the, the fascinating things that we saw was as we created a dashboard initially for clinicians like you both, uh, to, to monitor population health, to monitor treatment, efficacy, uh, those sort of things, we also really created a dashboard for managers a as well to monitor workforce health. And, you know, I just sort of wanted to, to throw out there, as we look at this for groups, uh, because we, even in this podcast so often talked about population norms and individual health as, as we like to say, it's almost a mantra.
Speaker 1 00:22:13 Now look at the population norm, forget about it because your goal is to get better than you. You were last week. You, you always wanna, basically, it's like golfing by yourself. You just wanna get a better score than you, you did last time out. So ina as, as we start to do more and more work with organizations, uh, I just want you to sort of, a manager can log into the dashboard and let's forget the individuals right now, but can start to see this collective group health. And I just kind of wanna get your reflections on what do you see when, when you work with folks? Cause I know you work with, uh, elite athletes, you work with elite military forces. What does some of this group data knowing there's variations in genetics, all that, what does that start to tell us over time?
Speaker 2 00:23:06 Um, again, really good question. And, uh, you know, we can kind of treat that organization as a single, um, entity. And yes, you know, we get a whole collection of scores, uh, but it's almost like one being, uh, in a sense of, you know, we get some idea of state health and trade health. You can take a look, um, at your dashboard and, you know, get an idea of how is my team, my group, my company, you know, uh, doing, uh, this morning? Uh, and they will give you an idea of, you know, do I really challenge them today? Or maybe today is a day when, uh, we take it a little bit easier. Maybe build, you know, uh, build in some, you know, again, extra breaks or some team building exercise, I don't know, something like that. Um, or, you know, is everybody at their peak?
Speaker 2 00:23:57 And maybe today we do go for that, uh, task that we've been, um, consider considering. Uh, or, you know, if you're implementing something new, I'd say, you know, you're a manager who's innovative and, you know, goes to learn, uh, things and it figures out how to implement a new, uh, new skills and new management techniques. Uh, and you know, you, it's really important to establish a baseline, right? Just like with a person, uh, you wanna establish, you know, say couple weeks of, uh, you are group, um, health baseline, and then you start implementing your skill and see how, um, the group H r V changes, um, you know, uh, weeks after you start implementing that, uh, new skill or that new, um, protocol or, you know, some, uh, something of the sort. Um, so really, if you are not looking at each individual team member, the organization is not that different from an actual person in, in what you do with that data. You know, you're looking at that collective entity data and, uh, examining it in a similar way.
Speaker 1 00:25:00 Yeah. So Dave, I want to throw, I'm not gonna say this is an ethical dilemma at you, but it's a tough one because I, one, we are very upfront, you should never punish an employee for a heart rate variability score. In fact, I've, I've said to, to very publicly, we will fire you as a customer if we hear you do that. That is, that to me, crosses an ethical line that we don't wanna work with you. Maybe somebody else will. We're not the company to work with you if you punish that. But I know, I don't know, you got eight or 10 clinics and other things going on in, in your life. Uh, you know, I do, I'm fascinated with. So let's say you have a group of 20 people. Let, let's say you, you, you have a group of 20 people. You, you've got now an average.
Speaker 1 00:25:53 And what I love about our dashboard is we're gonna give you an average, and we're also going to give you a population norm for that group. So now you have a group of people, a team, maybe an entire organization, and because of the number of people that, that population norm probably can give you some insight. Is this group healthy or is this group struggling? And while we will fire you immediately, if you punish an employee for an H R V score, I am not totally against it being a metric to assess managers. And I would just love to get your thing because we know H R V is a predictor of cognitive ability, the ability to engage with customers, patients, clients, socially emotional regulation and medical health. You know, again, medical health, kind of an outlier. But the other things are so crucial to most business success. So I, we, we kind of make the point in the book that a manager's responsibility at least impart, yes, business outcomes need to happen, but to keep a workforce healthy is likely going to improve performance. And I would love to get your your thoughts on, on that statement.
Speaker 3 00:27:17 Um, so yes, an another, another dilemma indeed. Um, and, uh, and a difficult one, right? Uh, so yeah, you know, it, it is really hard to, uh, you know, to say to an employee, well, hey, you know, your, your H R V was down by 30% today, so just stay home and rest, right? Um, that's not something that we would say <laugh>. Um, but it may be an indication to say something, and especially if we're seeing this trend happening, um, you know, to, well, let's reduce novelty in their work environment, at least for the moment, right? Um, because we know that I novelty is going to be the most stressful thing, uh, for your nervous system. So, so can we reduce that in any way for, for this particular person who is down? Um, you know, and that may be, uh, that, okay, well, there's, there's a list of things that you have to do. Um, and these, you're very familiar with, these you do every single day. So let's focus on those things for today, and let's push this off until tomorrow. But what if that very important new thing has to get done today? Okay, well then we're going to give the opportunity for this person to, uh, let's say, um, you know, cuz cigarette breaks are no longer a thing, but <laugh>. But yeah,
Speaker 1 00:28:33 We threw out breaks all together, <laugh> in the process, <laugh>.
Speaker 3 00:28:38 But what about mindfulness breaks, right? Yes. Um, you know, let's, let's do that. You know, let's say, okay, you know, you have to do this thing at 10:00 AM today. Yeah. So at nine 30 or at 9:00 AM let's give you a, a moment to go and recharge your nervous system. You know, make sure that you are prepared for this thing that you have to get done. Um, you know, and that, and that can be, you know, like, you know, was saying, uh, a breathing exercise. Um, it can be what, whatever, whatever it is for that individual that most, that is most effective. I mean, and for most people, they're gonna find, uh, especially when they are doing it, uh, consistently, again, as Iena said there, um, that we would, uh, that we would find that the breathing exercises are gonna be the, the easiest access and the most effective.
Speaker 3 00:29:23 Um, but, but that would be, you know, that would be one way to, uh, to handle that type of a situation. Um, now on the, on the other hand, you know, if somebody's, if somebody, if one person is doing great and the other person isn't, uh, you know, is there a possibility? Does your company have the opportunity for overlap? Where, um, you know, and I I, I think of this, uh, you know, application more to my own office, um, where there is some crossover between employees. So it would be easy for, for this person to step up and be the front desk role and be the interaction with the patients, whereas this person can do a lot more of the backend, you know, bookkeeping work and, you know, tracking things and stocking supplements and, uh, and whatnot that doesn't need that involvement. Yeah. Um, so if there, if that's a possibility as well, we can, uh, we can look at things like that. So, um, just a little bit of a shift in what somebody's focus would be for the day would be, uh, a lot more along the lines of what I would be a fan of. Uh, rather than saying, don't show up at all,
Speaker 1 00:30:25 <laugh>. Yeah, exactly. Will, and, and I, I think what's really fascinating as you, as you start to look at creating groups in da our dashboard looking at different, you know, you think about a, a larger organization and you can really start to track how's the accounting part, how's the C-suite doing, you know, is a manager struggling and does, is that reflected in their, their team's collective heart rate variability scores? Again, I, if you look at the heart rate variability science, and you look at what sets businesses up for success, cognitive ability is going to be up there, the ability to engage in most jobs, other people socially, whether that's your teammate, whether that's customers, consumers that you're working with. And then emotional regulation, if you got somebody going off, probably not good for anybody is, uh, morale in that. So we, we can really start to measure aspects of the organization, and that's again, where you don't necessarily wanna compete.
Speaker 1 00:31:27 Dave's team versus IN'S team versus Matt's team. But you start to look at team versus population norms, monthly averages, just like ina said, all time averages. Um, you know, and you can, what, what happens when, let's say a key member leaves a team, um, what happens to that team score? Uh, you know, you can start to really measure, you know, in my world that, you know, in social services, we even get attacked by people we were trying to help. You know, what, what kind of a big incidence or somebody brings a weapon into the waiting room, what's that do to collective heart rate variability? Uh, how does our management team handle that personally? But how do we help folks recover from that as well? I mean, I, I love being in the tech world. I watch all these documentaries on, on tech, and they do these sprints and like, we're sleeping under the desks, and then they turn out a really bad product, you know?
Speaker 1 00:32:26 And it's like, well, because you reign yourself into the ground, you did a lot of stupid things. And I think we can start to connect these in a little bit of a different way. Because if all Matt's pilots or all Matt's surgeons are not doing well, maybe there's something about the organizational environment as a variable, uh, too, which, which I think is really exciting that we could start to, to ask those questions. I honestly get more excited in the business world for those collective scores than necessarily the individual. I think the individual has a lot, it's, it's a game changer in of, of itself. But really looking at tho those group scores as well, I, I think is really exciting.
Speaker 2 00:33:09 That's such a good point, Matt. And I'll, you know, interject for a moment. You know, perfect example of where this might come in, in such a helpful way is, uh, looking at hardship, reliability, uh, for residents, medical residents, you know, those who are doing at 36 hour shifts, and those that are kept to, you know, no more than 12 hours, right? And, you know, how are they doing? Um, how are, you know, how are they doing overall? How are they doing towards the end of their shift? Um, I, I'm not aware of, uh, such a study being done, although it might, you know, might be out there, but it, uh, this would be a really helpful way to, uh, to track, uh, how are we training, uh, our medical, uh, personnel and, you know, other folks as well.
Speaker 1 00:33:51 A absolutely. You know, and I, I think I see movement away from the stupidity of how we train medical providers. Uh, and I'll be very frank and honest with you, I don't care if my medical provider can run an intellectual marathon. I want them to be cognitively awake when they see me in the room. And I think finally, which it blows me away, it took this long, it's risky putting somebody who's been working a 36 hour shift with a patient, you know, because the misdiagnosis, mistreatment, all those other things as well. I wanna get this. One of the, I've been talking to a few people about getting this into social work schools, because even though it might not be necessarily a surgery or something like that with a resident, a medical diagnosis or treatment, you know, if we are putting people, especially through their internships and others, if they're burned out when they're leaving school, you know, can we teach them the skills to be healthy?
Speaker 1 00:34:56 So we get folks in social services, healthcare educators, off the top categories for burnout, and what a better time to learn that is part of your training. Uh, so you have these coping skills coming out of that. So when we talk about organizations, I think schools, uh, graduate schools, medical schools, undergrad is a great time to start to quantify this. How'd your university do keeping your students healthy? Um, here, here's a way to find that out, which I, I think can be incredibly powerful as a, a learning tool as well, uh, with this. So let's kind of wrap up here with another ethical dilemma. Uh, this chapter is full of them, and this kind of goes to what I said before is, we will not work with you if you are going to fire or punish people because of a low heart rate variability score, where we're not going to go there with you, uh, for a, a range of reasons.
Speaker 1 00:36:00 I just don't think it's ethical, uh, because it could be the work environment that's stressing them out. So, um, however, here, here is something I found really interesting when I started talking about doing this as sort of a self-care staff resiliency tool is probably, I would say nine outta 10 people that I would just teach about heart rate variability. And they get really excited about integrating in their program, integrating with patients or clients. Uh, and then I would turn it to them to say, you know, this could also measure the, the wellness of your team or organization. And the, the, the statement I heard so much was I would never share my heart rate variability score, which they just learned about five minutes earlier with my supervisor. Now, my first thought is you give them your social security number. I don't know if you still get birth certificates when you start a job.
Speaker 1 00:37:00 It's been a while since I've had a real job. So, but to basically give all the information you need to take out a loan in the person's name, but God forbid I give them this biometric that I didn't even know what it was five minutes ago until Matt introduced it to me. The other follow up that I gotta throw in there too is what if you got $25 Starbucks gift card? Oh, of course I'd share that with them. So like, it, it is like this thing I would never share unless you give me like a 25 bucks. What buys you two espressos nowadays, you gimme two espressos. Sure. Take it. Do whatever you want with it. So, Eva, I know you've thought a long time about heart rate variability. I, I'd love to get your impressions on this. You know, as, as we've worked with organizations, I know to de-identify data, to give people code names, to even give people reports that de-identify who it is. You know, I think that there's a benefit to you knowing if I'm, if I, you're my boss, that, you know, my daily scores, because as Dave said, I, we can offer support and that should be the business environment, is how do, how do you help Matt who might be doing something very serious or might not deal with a low day, but also protecting confidentiality as well. I'd love to just get, I know you've had conversations like this as well too.
Speaker 2 00:38:30 Yeah. And this is, this is definitely a tough one. Um, you know, I also don't have a boss to share this with, but, uh, you know, when I did, I would be thinking 50 times before sharing <laugh> Yes. Before sharing my H R V scores with them. Um, I think a few, a few things for us to consider. Uh, there has to be a lot of trust, uh, in order for the team to feel comfortable sharing their scores with the manager. Um, you know, my personal view, you know, the, the only way to make us be ethical is to never mandate sharing the H I V scores. You know, if a new me team member, uh, joins the team, they don't have that trust established, they may not feel comfortable, um, you know, being forced, uh, to share, um, you know, their biometrics seems, uh, really intrusive and, uh, just wrong.
Speaker 2 00:39:20 Uh, but, you know, when a team, uh, team members and managers know each other well, when there is a lot of trust, you know, certainly, uh, gives a great incentive to develop that trust and develop that interpersonal or rapport. Um, and then, um, if the team members feel like, well, I can share, I feel safe, you know, I feel safe sharing my h hiv scores with my manager, that can absolutely be helpful. Yes. Because, uh, um, then the manager can check in, uh, not from a punitive standpoint, but rather, you know, Hey, you know, can I help you in some way? Can I support you in some way? You know, what's going on? Do we, do we need to take some things off your plate? It's a definite, there are definite benefits when the trust and the safety, uh, and the safety is there. Um, we might consider having some sort of tiered approach to this where the manager is seeing, uh, de-identified scores, you know, uh, and the manager doesn't know which person is attached to which number, but perhaps there is someone else on the team who does.
Speaker 2 00:40:22 Um, and, you know, the, the manager might call on that person, you know, perhaps it's somebody in human resources or, um, you know, it's a wellness officer, you know, uh, someone who is, um, responsible for then, you know, reaching out, uh, to those who are perhaps struggling for a few days or, you know, whose H I V scores are not quite so high. Um, and, uh, you know, that really, uh, you know, takes away from the fear of, you know, uh, uh, punishment from a manager that hierarchy is, uh, um, well, it's different, right? Yeah. So if you have a, you know, it's, you know, if you have a wellness officer reaching out to see how you are somebody who has, um, you know, no decision making in your raises or in your promotions or in assignments you're given, but rather somebody who is just there, uh, to help you, uh, be, uh, at your best and including, uh, figuring out when is a good time to let your manager know that something is going on.
Speaker 1 00:41:16 Yeah. I mean, the other thing I'd love to get your thoughts on, uh, ina as well is, I, I think, you know, there, there is the question. So let's put police officers, surgeons, you know, off to the side and let, let's talk about the 99% of people whose jobs probably don't have life or death decisions or a a a mistake doesn't end up in a serious situation. I, I, I lean towards, and this is what I love to get your feedback on, and we talked a little bit about this in the book too, that, that for the most part, don't worry about the day-to-day scores. You know, I, I think it's not really your business if I go out and have a couple drinks on a Tuesday, as long as I show up and do my work, right? So I, I really like, or maybe there was a fight with a spouse, or maybe I had a bad night's sleep last night for no really in particular reason.
Speaker 1 00:42:18 I didn't, didn't have a good night's sleep. So sick kid at home, right? Things that happen in life that are just the ebbs and flows of a typical month in the business world. Um, so for me, like where the individual kind of the management comes in, if there is enough trust in safety, which I think is a huge conversation to be had within organizations. Cause it is not wanting to share a sign of lack of trust in safety. I think it's an interesting question. I don't think it's necessarily a correlation one to one, but it's an interesting question. You know, I, I, I just would love to get to, because we've talked about the individual, the day scores. When you think about the weeks or the monthly averages, do you, do you see a little bit different way that we might be able to look at those?
Speaker 2 00:43:07 Yeah, I think with the organization's, uh, you know, you're absolutely right. Those, uh, um, trend, uh, scores are much more important because they are much more interpretable, um, and prevent us from needing to dig into each individual person's data, as you said, you know, so many things, uh, it might affect, you know, someone's H I V score and it's really, you know, it shouldn't be the, the manager's business. It's, uh, it, it's just really not helpful, right? Uh, you know, each individual person can be charged of tracking their, uh, H R V and checking in with themselves on a daily basis. But when it comes to an organization, we really are looking at weeks, months, um, you know, uh, years, uh, kinds of trends. And then looking at our, you know, this month this is what our H HR V has been doing, um, it's been, it's trending up.
Speaker 2 00:43:58 What are we doing, right? Oh, this next month, H r v's trending down, what's going on? And, you know, as Dave said earlier, uh, uh, in this podcast, putting those scores into context, uh, is really, really important. Cuz you know, just looking at a score, you know, whether it's an individual or um, or a team is not terribly helpful. There's too much room for interpretation. Uh, but context will help you, uh, figure it out, uh, with a little bit more, uh, reliability, a little bit more, uh, a little bit more accuracy. Um, and it just kind of points you in the right, right direction. You know, our scores have been trending down the last six months. Yeah. Uh, you know, it's probably not random and it's not individual differences. There is something going on in this, in this team, in this organization. Uh, you know, if there is a way to compare scores in one, one group to another within the organization, that can give us, um, a little bit more, uh, information. Um, you know, is one group doing something different from others and, uh, uh, what's going on there?
Speaker 1 00:45:01 Awesome. Dave, you know, you got two people in the psychology world talking trust and safety. I'd love to just, I'd love to just get your thoughts on, uh, thi this sort of dilemma as we hit with people not maybe trusting enough. The, the de-identification. I, I'd love just to, to get your thoughts on, on what, what Ina just said.
Speaker 3 00:45:24 Well, well, yeah. I mean, there's a, there does have to be a higher level of trust, you know, or, I mean, I'm sorry, trust. Um, because when you, when you do look at that, um, you know, Matt, you said, okay, you know, you're giving your social security number, you're giving your bank account number, but those are all external things, right? Those are all external things, um, that you're not so deeply connected with. Um, even though, yes, those are your identifying factors, right? Somebody could steal your identity, uh, or open up being a counter, take out a loan in your name, but it's not you inside. You know, it's, it's, uh, giving somebody access to your biometrics is like letting somebody look inside of you. Yeah. Um, and that is, it is intimate data. Um, some people are very disconnected with that, but, um, but a lot of people would be very, very connected to it.
Speaker 3 00:46:13 Like, uh, you know, if you, uh, think about how many people, uh, you know, would, uh, would say, and, uh, and I think you might even say this in the book too, uh, um, and Matt with, uh, with that is, um, is, you know, well, you know, I, I don't want to share my information with, with Big Tech. I don't wanna share my information with Apple, but it's on your wrist. It's already happening. <laugh>. Oh, alright. Yeah. <laugh>. Um, you know, and when you break it down like that, then people go, oh, okay. Uh, you know, um, so, so then it, uh, you know, it takes that barrier down a little bit or, or maybe, uh, you know, makes them go into hiding. I don't know, one of the two. Um, but, uh, but yeah, you do have to establish trust. That is a, that is a huge piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3 00:46:58 Um, and then, uh, and then, you know, it's, it's, there is no need to be able to see an individual as well. So, like you guys talked about the identifiers where, um, you know, where you don't need to actually understand where the, what the person, uh, exactly is. Um, and, and just, um, and just like what you guys were talking about, uh, made me think of, you know, uh, we have these, you know, yearly marketing calendars, yearly event calendars associated with our, with our business, right? And, um, and, and it would be so cool to look at this, this and see how our whole organization is doing as we go through summertime where we're having these really fun outdoor events and we're doing this and we're doing that, and we're socializing and having all this fun. And then, um, you look at months like February in Chicago <laugh>, uh, where everybody is depressed and their vitamin D is down and
Speaker 1 00:47:53 Probably wants to be outside, uh,
Speaker 3 00:47:54 Whatsoever. Yeah. And you haven't seen the sun in months <laugh>. Um, you know, so it, it would be, uh, it would be very interesting to overlay, uh, you know, the heart rate variability trends of the entire organization with things like that. You know, what events really do bring life to the organization. Uh, what seasons bring life to the organization, uh, where do we see the most stress? And, uh, and then how does that correlate to the bottom line too? Yeah. You know, um, and, and you know, this stuff, uh, for, for most any company should be relatively accessible when you look back over a year, uh, and then in planning that next year, you know, okay, so February's a drag and as a result, numbers are always down in February. What can we do to make that month pop for us? Absolutely. You know? Absolutely. Yeah. Um, and, uh, and there's where you can really start to use those numbers, uh, as a, as a very powerful tool. Um, but yes.
Speaker 1 00:48:48 Yeah. And then, you know, with the result of increased patient engagement, increased patient satisfaction, I mean that's, that, that idea of where I think this is a revolutionary leadership, uh, tool. And again, I, I wanna, I just wanna reiterate that the people who are, a lot of them, I, I would say if nine out of 10 would never share, at least that's their response, eight outta those nine wood for a $25 gift card. So I think what I'm hearing is that you owe me something for this. Like, yeah, maybe for a couple lattes I'll give this to you or maybe for a hundred dollars off my healthcare insurance plan. But, but I think as leaders think about, especially those that think innovatively about this, is that this is worth something. That, that's, I think where we're at with this adaptation of biometrics into the workplace is then this is a, this is a negotiation a at this point in time.
Speaker 1 00:49:49 And I just think to be open to that, and then how do you set that up where people feel safe because they can find their eight year old and take a heart rate variability score. You can cheat on H R V. So you, you that trust in that safety, which will be themes throughout our series are going to be huge. So, uh, Dave, thank you for this great discussion. This chapter really is why I really wanted to write this book with both of you, because I think that there's, there's so much potential good in bringing in biometrics to improve the outcomes of a business no matter what those outcomes are. Again, social, emotional, cognitive increases in those functionings, it's gonna make any business a better place to come to work every day a better place, uh, to engage with customers. Uh, again, whether that's doing surgery or whether that's a big presentation to close a deal, uh, heart rate variability can really help create a healthier work environment, which is obviously the goal of this entire series. So thank you both. Uh, we'll publish chapter three next week, so, and then, uh, talk about it the week after. So, uh, we'll see you all soon. Thank you.
Speaker 4 00:51:08 Thank you both.
