Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of optimal LLC and optimal HR-v. Check us out at optimal hr-v dot com. Please enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Welcome Prince to the Heart rate variability podcast. I am Matt Bennett. I am back here with Dave and Ina to talk about to the, uh, chapter seven of our book, heartbeat of Business. Um, if you're new to the podcast, I highly encourage you to go back to episode one of this, uh, journey we've been taking around the book. Uh, should be a, a few weeks back in your post. Uh, you can get a free copy of the Heartbeat of Business at optimal H r b.com. Uh, so I've been excited. This has been such a fun series. We've got a lot of great feedback on it with my co-authors, ina and Dave. So, chapter seven, um, I'm really excited to talk about this chapter because, um, it's got one of my favorite things that, uh, in's work actually introduced me to. Um, oh, God won't mispronounce it again. Your keys is sson your keys. Ah,
Speaker 2 00:01:28 You got it. Yoki. Dotson. You got it.
Speaker 1 00:01:30 So, like, I don't know, like why my tongue can't dance, but it definitely cannot dance. So I, I, you know, uh, I found this really interesting, um, because it gives us a way to talk about the nervous system, uh, for optimal performance because I, I think so many times we think about the parasympathetic, ventral vagal, uh, you know, in a time of high stress, everything's about calm, right? How do you calm down the sympathetic? How do you, how do you calm down or regulate the amygdala? Um, and I think obviously that's key to, to what we're gonna talk about today. Yet we, we need a little bit of something, something if we're gonna perform at our best. So, so one of the things I love about the graphic in, in the book is moderate activation produces optimal performance. So I would love, because I know you and Dave as well, work with high performers too, elite athletes, special forces, all those fun folks. And I wonder when you, when you think about this in that optimal performance, talk to me about how you use, uh, this law to help people. You know, again, we don't, I believe we don't want 'em too low, too relaxed, that they're asleep, but we also don't want 'em in fight or flight response most of the time either. So, uh, ina I would just love to hear you, uh, talk about this and how it informs your work.
Speaker 2 00:02:58 Yeah. Um, so interestingly that, uh, as you said, most of the time, uh, when people think about a challenge, um, they think that they need to be relaxed. Yeah. Right? Uh, or at the very least, calm, uh, in order to, in order to do their best. Right? But, and if you think about, um, you know, let's say you're about to run a 400 meter dash Yep. Right? Shouldn't you be relaxed? Right? Uh, you know, that one seems a little bit more intuitive, like, no, probably not, right? You know, you really need to be kind of pumped and, you know, ready to go, right? Um, and yet, uh, when we're talking about less physical challenges, um, including, um, athletic, but perhaps a little bit less intense, uh, challenges like, you know, maybe a championship game or something like this, right? People still and about, you know, presentations and interviews and, you know, singing at GIE Hall, I don't know.
Speaker 2 00:03:54 All, all those kinds of stuff. According a podcast, awesome things, recording a podcast. There you go. Um, people still think that, um, they need to relax. It's, it, our language, uh, is just so infused with the, with this kind of semantics and it's, uh, um, it's just gonna underlies, um, our approach, uh, to challenges, um, and creates a problem, right? Because when we are about to face a challenge, the body starts preparing for it. Yeah. That's normal. That's natural. That's how it should be. Uh, the body is going to, um, increase its activation. Your heart rate is gonna go up and your breathing is going to change. And, you know, your gastrointestinal system is gonna do something right? And your muscles are gonna get a little more tense, right? And, you know, so as your brain, right, you're gonna feel a bit more alert and perhaps a little bit more narrowly focused on the task at hand, et cetera.
Speaker 2 00:04:44 Uh, all of these are not only normal, but they're helpful that, that is what you need in order to be at your best, right? So your body starts doing that, and then there is a part of your mind that's used to thinking you need to be relaxed, notices that activation and goes, oh, no, no, no, no, this is stress. This is bad. Right? We're still conditioned to think of stress is bad, that we need to de-stress. We need to get rid of our stress. We need to, um, you know, be serene. Um, eh, so the, the mind comes on and goes, let's get rid of this. Uh, so now your mind and your body are, you know, budding their proverbial heads. Um, and that's turned up in the fight or flight because you are trying to achieve the impossible. Um, and that is a sure sign of danger, right?
Speaker 2 00:05:25 You know, you are engaging in something that's simply, uh, simply not possible. So that's how people end up in that, you know, the downward, uh, side of that inverted, uh, u curve over there of the York is Dotson law. That's how people end up overactivated. Uh, no matter what the challenge is, there is an optimal level of activation. Uh, and it's in the middle, you know, that, you know, at the inverted, you, it's some sort of moderate level of activation. The amplitude of the activation is of course gonna vary, you know? Yeah. 400 meter dash requires way more activation than recording a podcast. Uh, and yet both of these activities do have an optimal sweet spot of activation that's required, and we want the body to be able to get there, and we want the mind to allow the body to then stay there. Right? You know, we, we want both sides of this, right? Uhhuh, so there you go.
Speaker 1 00:06:19 So I, I'll throw this out to either of you, cuz I, I, I'm assuming it'll be a tough question, so I'll throw that warning out right away. So, a lot of what we talk about with heart rate variability is the ventral vagal nerve and the ventral vagal break, uh, dancing with the sympathetic system. I, I still like, you know, I know it puts a, a break and lowers the heart rate to give us the variation. So I wonder, and maybe I'm just in the wrong science, maybe here, uh, maybe we're talking about brain versus autonomic, but, but it, one of the things that I, I think about is it seems like always a better ventral vagal activation, a better parasympathetic response, a better heart rate variability is good no matter what though. And this is where I, I think there's a little bit of a challenge because I could see myself, like as an athlete, I thought I wanted some sympathetic as well mixed in there. So, uh, how do I look at this? Because I would assume if I'm more eventually vaguely active, I'd be more aware on the court. So, so help, help this confused man. H help me, help me understand.
Speaker 3 00:07:40 Please take this ina because you know, <laugh>, you have taught me everything I know about this. So yeah,
Speaker 2 00:07:48 <laugh>, okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna take a stab. I've been thinking about this Ina because Matt, you've been asking this question. Yes. Um, so I appreciate the pro the a bit of, uh, opportunity to prep. Um, so we want a strong vagal break. We, we want a strong, parasympathetic nervous system. Um, and part of its strength, uh, and I think this is the, the part of maybe a little bit counterintuitive, um, part of its strength is knowing when to let go. Okay? Uh, so when you are running that 400 meter dash, you are gonna be pr dominant dominantly in sympathetic state as you should be, right? Yeah. Uh, because, uh, yeah. You know, you're fine. You don't, yeah. E exactly. You don't want your, um, vagal, uh, break, you know, getting, getting in the way there. You, you want, um, the sympathetic activation to be well at its optimal level, right?
Speaker 2 00:08:43 Yeah. Which in that situation is gonna be fairly high. Um, you know, sympathetic activation sometimes gets a little bit of a bad rep, just like stress, right? You know, we don't want it, of course we do. It's just when and how and how much. Um, and because the sympathetic nervous system doesn't have a built-in shutoff mechanism. Yeah. Uh, it, it just, it just goes up, right? You know, as you are, um, about to run, um, the sympathetic activation that's gonna go up, but what is it gonna, what is it? Um, what is going to let it go up? That's the strong bagel nerve. Yes. Um, we think of it as the brake that puts on, you know, that puts on the brakes to sympathetic activation, but it's also the same, um, mechanism that takes the brake off and allows the activation to go up and it's gonna go, let it go up pretty high.
Speaker 2 00:09:32 It will still at some point cap it, right? Yeah. Uh, but it, you know, that cap is gonna be quite high if you're talking about running. Um, so you don't want to be in a, um, vagal state when you're running your 400 meter dash, uh, but you wanna be able to return to it pretty quick. Um, you know, once you're done, and if you're talking about being on a tennis court, um, you want to be able to switch, uh, between, uh, being more dominantly, you know, in sympathetic state, uh, and then, uh, having your activation decrease a bit, right? Never, you, you are never gonna wanna be relaxed on a tennis court, right? Yeah, no, you, you're not gonna be able to move fast enough when the ball comes, you know, on the opposite the end of the court at you. Um, but, you know, there has be a, um, this sort of, the, the, that dance of, uh, higher activation, lower, higher, lower.
Speaker 2 00:10:27 So it's constantly adjusting itself. Um, you know, again, when you're running the 400 meter dash, the activation's gonna be pretty steady for the, for the time you're running, right? It's, that's gonna more self-explanatory, um, on a tennis court. Uh, if you are a, a soccer goalie, right? Uh, you know, you are gonna, uh, want to shift from being able to activate very quickly, uh, to being able to be less activated physically, perhaps, you know, a little more activated mentally, so you can watch where that ball is coming in so that you can react very, very quickly, right? Um, and a strong parasympathetic nervous system allows you to do just that. Um, it allows you to switch from more highly activated state to less, uh, you know, less intensity and activation. Then very quickly, uh, jump right back in.
Speaker 1 00:11:14 Awesome. I'm gonna give you a chance, I'm gonna give you a chance to breathe because I, I got some follow up, but I, I've gotta bring Dave in here, because Dave, at one point in his life, decided to get in a cage with a man that had all the tools to probably kill him, and he chose to do that. And, uh, Dave, so I wanna bring your professional, uh, because you've been in a position that I've never been in, in my life, locked in a cage with a dude that could seriously do you harm. Um, it might be telling you how much he's gonna do you harm. I I just watched the weigh-ins of these events. I don't watch the events, so it seems like they don't like each other. So you shut yourself in this cage where you can't flee, you gotta fight. But at least what my, my little understanding of martial arts is also a highly strategic, uh, piece. You, we wanna, you know, I think a lot of it's reactive. So as we talk about this, I would love to get your experience, um, in mixed martial arts and how this kind of resonates with you this, uh, parasympathetic, sympathetic dance.
Speaker 3 00:12:23 Well, yeah. As you know, was talking about, that's, uh, you know, uh, she's talking about tennis in our, in my, my mind goes to what about boxing? What about, yeah. You know, but I
Speaker 1 00:12:32 Wanna talk about Matt. Absolutely. Quarterback gives us a great example. Yeah,
Speaker 3 00:12:37 Well, where we're like looking at an extreme, uh, you know, end of, end of it. Yeah. But, uh, but that's where, you know, like, um, like, uh, with that Matt, um, I always, uh, I always think about that as it's not a real fight. Uh, so if anybody asks me if I, I've never actually been in a real fight, um, you know, I, by no means is it, uh, is it acting or anything of, of that nature, the, uh, some of that stuff that you see on tv, you know, how much they hate each other, this and that. I think they're, you know, they might be playing that up a little bit. Um, but,
Speaker 1 00:13:10 But I, I've seen what they look like after the fights too,
Speaker 3 00:13:13 Dave. Yes, yes. Yeah. No, no, no. Yeah. Don't get me wrong. Don't get me wrong. The punches are, the punches in the kids are leaving.
Speaker 1 00:13:19 Yeah.
Speaker 3 00:13:20 <laugh>. Um, but, but, you know, there's that sense of safety. Um, so I, I never fought out of, uh, of anger in any way. Um, and in fact, that's the worst thing you can do in a fight is to, is to, you know, I we'd say losing our head, right? Uh, where you have your game plan and you're going in and you do get hit unexpectedly, or something happens that is not what you want, and then you start to deviate from your game plan and, uh, and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1 00:13:49 And that has a plan until they get punched in the face,
Speaker 3 00:13:51 <laugh>, yes. <laugh>, and then, and then all of a sudden things just compile, uh, you know, com uh, compounding, um, and how quickly they are going wrong for you. Um, but in my head, it was always just a game. Uh, you know, it's no, for me, uh, I grew up playing hockey, so it was, it wasn't a big transition going to, uh, going to doing that. And, um, and there's that, there's that rules. You know, we know that no matter how wrong things go, this is, this is just a game, right? At any point I could tap out and say I'm done. At any point I can wave my hands and say, I, I give up, right? Um, so we know that there's that safety net there. And I think that there's, um, I think there's a, a lot of power within that. And I know, um, I know that within the, uh, polyvagal theory, they talk about, you know, how sport is so different, um, than, um, than an actual fight.
Speaker 3 00:14:44 And that's where, you know, I don't know how I would be in an actual fight. You know, I might, uh, I might be the guy who just totally shuts down and gets my butt kicked. Uh, you know, I, I totally could be that person. Um, and same with, uh, same with like arguments. I always think that too. Um, uh, if somebody confronts you, right? That is so different than, um, than anything that you would experience sport-wise. Uh, and actually I have a question for you about that ina uh, ju in just, uh, in just a moment. But, um, but with that, um, when we are in that cage, yeah, it is a hundred percent that that parasympathetic, uh, you know, that, uh, that ventral, vagal rather, has to be regulating you so well, so that you don't lose your head. Because, because if you don't have that par that, uh, that ventral vagal power there, then all of a sudden you do slip over that edge, and now it's, uh, now you're, you're the lost person running around making no sense of anything, right?
Speaker 3 00:15:47 You're, you're swinging punches that don't make any sense. You're putting yourself in vulnerable positions. Um, that's where things really start to go wrong. Uh, so, so without a doubt, uh, you know, that's where, that's where practice, that's where the training, that's where realizing, uh, you know, um, I, I always find it funny, a new guy in a gym is always, um, is always fighting like, like he's fighting for his life. And then you look at the guys who are experienced, and they're just so relaxed going through everything. Cause this is just, there's just another day for them, right? Um, so, so that's where we build up that stamina. We build up our, um, we build up that ventral vagal power, uh, where we can regulate how scary this is or isn't. Um, but, uh, but you know, with that, uh, I actually wanted to ask you a question about that.
Speaker 3 00:16:35 Um, okay. So my wife, the other, uh, the other day, um, had a, uh, a situation with an employee and, um, and I was like, how on earth did you not lose your mind? Like, how on earth did you not just shout at this person and fire them until you're outta here? And, um, and, and that's, I I look at her as like, she must have the best ventral, vagal regulation, uh, one cuz she's married to me, <laugh>. No, but, uh, wow. Wow. Yeah, right. But, um, but because to deal with those types of situations, and those are real world situations, whereas my fights my confrontations, right? Those are, those are not real world. That's, that's play that's play world. Um, so yeah, yeah. Matt <laugh> game punched in the head, it's, it's a game. Um, but, but that's where, how does that differ in, in those situations? Cuz I can relate so strongly there, but I don't, I don't have to do that kind of stuff. Um, how does that differ for us and how, how quickly we activate sympathetically, uh, when it is a real fight, when it is that kind of a situation, uh, you know, where, where you do have to keep your wits about you because you are this person's employer <laugh> and you can't punch 'em in the face.
Speaker 1 00:18:05 Well, how similar the, how similar our biological autonomic reaction is to both of those variables. That that's the, I just to throw that in there. Like, we're, we're so simple in that way when you talk about the unconscious.
Speaker 3 00:18:21 Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:18:23 So, you know, this, this is where, um, you know, I'm gonna talk a little more about the, you know, the brain, uh, input into this. We would talk about the, a autonomic nervous system when it comes to the parasympathetic nervous system. Cause it is part of the anomic nervous system. And the vagal nerve, um, you know, is primarily, you know, the anomic nervous system. Cause it is, you know, your para, your vagal, neuro parasympathetic nervous system are almost the same thing. Uh, but, you know, your vagal nerve has projections, uh, into your brain, and it actually has a lot to do with your brain activity, especially, um, as we're learning from, you know, uh, recent brain imaging research like the last, you know, five years, there's been some really awesome, um, really awesome findings. Um, and I'm also going to bring in a concept of a more of a, a mindfulness concept of equanimity mm-hmm.
Speaker 2 00:19:11 <affirmative>, um, that can sometimes be confused with staying relaxed, but it's really not. Right? Equanimity means, um, staying well regulated in the face of a challenge, uh, well regulated, meaning activated as needed, less activated as needed, right? So staying in that optimal zone of activation. Um, and, uh, you know, David, that's exactly, uh, I'm, and I'm guessing the state your wife was in when she was having that, uh, challenging conversation with the employee, uh, you know, she was able, uh, to get into the state of equanimity. Um, and what, what I'm guessing was going on in her brain, um, was the pre cortex, the thinking part of the brain was appropriately putting on the brakes to the activation, right? You know, people, um, with, uh, higher heart rate variability have a more connected brain, right? So, you know, we know this again from some recent, um, brain imaging studies.
Speaker 2 00:20:06 Um, the, there, it's, it's not just how well is our prefrontal cortex functioning, but in and of itself, it's how well is it connected with other areas of the brain and how well areas of the brain are, um, able to communicate together? And in this case, how well is the, uh, prefrontal cortex able to put on the brakes to that, uh, amygdala, um, activation? So, yeah, you know, her, her triability is probably high. Uh, her parasympathetic regulation is probably really good. Um, so her, the connectivity be between the ventral medial pre prefrontal cortex and the amygdala, uh, and probably the insula, uh, you know, know is quite high. So she was able to both, um, regulate her own activation, take the perspective of the employee, and can understand where they were coming from. Uh, she was probably, you know, able to feel, you know, anger and whatever else if they were acting out. Uh, but she was also able to understand where they were coming from. That's the, that's the insula, right? So that very nice connectivity, uh, in her brain that was, uh, uh, that strongly associated with higher parasympathetic strength, uh, is what enabled her do that.
Speaker 1 00:21:18 Awesome.
Speaker 3 00:21:18 The, that is awesome. Uh, the, the neurology of it is so cool. <laugh>. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:24 So, I, I wonder, one of the things that, that I, I think I'm hearing, and this may, this may explain, and, and, you know, I really appreciate that you brought us up into the brain as well, because I think sometimes we just, like, we're either talking about autonomic, uh, kind of neck down and forget about the brain, or just talk about the brain and forget about, uh, the hardened or autonomic nervous system, neither of which really talks about us as human beings in a holistic way. One of the things, because, because if we bring this back into kind of the business environment, and in the chapter we talk a lot about, you know, challenging people with you, stress, like the good stress, the stress that leads to motivation, the stress that I probably believe, if you're in that optimal zone, so to speak, that is a motivator and not a demotivator.
Speaker 1 00:22:14 Uh, whereas if you get too much of anything, it's going to demotivate and maybe create a crash of sorts. I, I, I think I'm hearing learning is being big in here as well, is, you know, if I think about, and I think a quarterback, I, I said I was gonna bring up, I, I think it's a great example is if you hear like Payne Manning talk about what he's thinking as he watches a football game, it is kind of like rocket science, right? He's so intellectually engaged, and yet he is got a bunch of like 350, 400 pound elite athletes trying to really hurt him in a sportsman like way. And so, like, I imagine what Dave did kind of to manage his trust, what I did at the free throw line with the game, you know, hanging in the balance that there is some learning in that where a nav, uh, Navy seal, for example, might in a war zone be able to take a breath and solve a problem or connect with someone in crisis. So I I, where does learning kind of come into this? Um, maybe extending or bringing that optimal level of both, uh, sympathetic energy and parasympathetic, uh, executive functioning.
Speaker 3 00:23:38 So, uh, with, uh, you know, with the fighting, I can definitely say, uh, you know, like, uh, that, uh, like I gave the comparison of the guy the first time versus, uh, you know, the, um, the more experienced guy. And it's, it is all, uh, learned, um, you know, in, in that regard. Just like you had the free, free, free throw line, um mm-hmm. <affirmative> and, uh, and the quarterback. It's just, it's, the more times you are in a situation, the less threatening that situation becomes. Right? Um, uh, you know, I know we've, uh, we've said this on the, on the podcast several times, but novelty is the most threatening thing to your nervous system. And, um, and if, if I got into a cage with somebody, and this was the first time somebody had ever thrown a punch at me, I would, you would have no chance, right?
Speaker 3 00:24:29 Um, you would not be able to regulate yourself properly in that situation, right? But, um, but, but when you're, when you're the quarterback who's been through this same play, this same scenario, hundreds, thousands of times, it's just another day in a park, right? Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, it's like waking up in the morning. It's just what you do. Um, so, so the threat is gone from that. Uh, there there is no threat, right? And even, uh, even when it does get challenging, it's a challenge. Um, it's, it's still not a threat, right? Um, and, and granted, they can all take a turn, right? Like you said, uh, like you said, most are trying to take Peyton Manning down in a, uh, in a sportsmanlike way. Yeah. Most, right? Uh, we all know, you know, you try to tackle a quarterback a little bit differently, um, <laugh>, you know, um, so, so without a doubt, you know, is there some, is there some real fear and some real harm possible?
Speaker 3 00:25:28 Yes. Uh, but, but when we've been through this a million times, it's just another day in the park now for a Navy seal. Um, that's, you know, again, going from that, from that sports regulation into what I was talking, what I asked you about right now, we're, now we're in a real world situation. Now. This is actually life or death. Um, and yeah, practice, uh, practice helps, uh, without a doubt. But, uh, but, you know, I'd love to know, um, what else somebody like a Navy Seal does to, uh, to, to train. And I know that you've, uh, you, you've done work with them. Um, so how else do they help with regulation? Cuz it's, it's beyond just being an athlete.
Speaker 2 00:26:11 Yes. So I think, um, those who make it, uh, into the Navy seals, uh, are, uh, you know what, you know, a colleague of mine Ligos called, called Psych, uh, sorry, physiologically talented.
Speaker 1 00:26:27 I was gonna use badass, but that's much better. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:26:31 Badass. I think they're kinda the same. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so, uh, the, given the intensity, let's say, for lack of a better word, um, of, uh, you know, buds training, you know, entering the entrance to, uh, Navy Seals, um, the folks who make it, you know, have to come with a, um, built in ability to regulate, uh, better than, you know, most of us, I think that, you know, there's, there is a biological, perhaps genetic, uh, predisposition. Um, and, uh, the repeated exposure, uh, as you said is, um, absolutely crucial, right? Uh, you know, if you think about, um, you know, the first time you jump out of an airplane, um, right? It's, uh, I imagine even for a navy sealer or potential Navy seal, it's pretty scary. They do it right? You know, they have the ability to face the fear, and they can tell the difference between what's actually dangerous, um, and, and what they're able to, you know, to do.
Speaker 2 00:27:32 Um, but you know, once you have, I don't know, a few dozen jumps in belt, it probably doesn't phase you anymore, right? You know, as, um, as they were saying, um, and their ability to tell the difference, uh, between what they're able to engage in safely enough and how to do it is a really big part of it, right? So, uh, the prefrontal cortex, um, is, uh, well able to differentiate, you know, a what's under my control. So what can I do? You know, they are obviously, they go into plenty of actually really dangerous situations. Um, but the brain is able to assess, um, what can I do in this situation to keep myself safe? And they focus on that mm-hmm. <affirmative>, right? Um, sometimes, uh, the parts that are not under their control overwhelm and, you know, the, the danger becomes, um, uncontrollable, uh, with set outcomes.
Speaker 2 00:28:31 Uh, but, uh, in majority, uh, of these situations, they're able to keep their eye on what can I control? Um, whereas for most of us, when we are in these threatening situations, the brain goes to what I can't control an attempts to control it, right? So the brain waste its resources, um, in an effort to do something that's not actually possible. And then there is not enough resources left for things that would be possible. Um, and, you know, for folks like the, uh, Navy seals, they're able to focus on, uh, what's controllable and stay with that.
Speaker 1 00:29:03 Fascinating. I wanna, I wanna throw a couple statements out and see, I'll get your reaction to it. One is like, you know, when I, I think about motivational interviewing, so working with folks, we know motivation gets elicited, and we talk about this in the chapter a little bit through cognitive dissonance. In other words, realizing something about your current situation is less than optimal, or that your behavior's preventing you maybe from living the life that you want. So you're either kind of hurting yourself or you're missing out on something. And, you know, my work from the mental health perspective, that may be losing your children to social services, that that might be, uh, at the potential of overdosing from heroin. I mean, there's some real serious things, but it might be, Hey, I'd like to fit better into whatever clothing I'm wearing, or whatever, too. So it can be big and small things.
Speaker 1 00:29:55 One of the things that I really look at, uh, from, from my perspective in H R V has really taught me to really focus on is before we have those stressful events, making sure that I'm in a regulated state. So, so I'm, I'm thinking about that optimal curve is maybe if I'm in a spot where, hey, I know I'm going into a really big, I'm doing a keynote speaking in my, like, current life where I'm, I'm not getting into a cage or in a war zone, like, but I'm given a big speech. Like, I almost wanna walk into that maybe more on the highly regulated in on that, because I just know the event itself is going to sort of raise me up. And if I'm regulated walking into the stress, it stays eustress, it stays motivating, uh, for me, and it won't over overwhelm me.
Speaker 1 00:30:49 The the other thing I think I'm hearing, and to bring a little bit of, uh, terminology is, uh, top down regulation. Uh, I think we've get into the spot too with that prefrontal cortex, um, where again, helping learning, we're talking about catching ourselves before we get overwhelmed and our cup overflows, those sort of things. So, you know, I, I think even, you know, as we train with heart rate variability, biofeedback and mindfulness, what I believe in, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, we're building the strength of that prefrontal cortex. We're building its connection with the amygdala, which increases emotional regulation, especially intentional emotional regulation. So like the peak of our inverted curve where we're going to perform in our best probably increases over time and allows us to stay more so in our window of tolerance under stress, and keep looking at the challenges you stress instead of, uh, distress. Uh, and I, I'll just shut up because that's, that's sort of what I'm pulling away from from this conversation. I wanna make sure that I'm right because of course, this podcast is just all about me.
Speaker 2 00:32:03 I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 1 00:32:05 Yeah, <laugh>, love it. So, I, I wanna win again. I, I don't wanna repeat what we went through in the chapter because I, you know, the interesting thing, and I, I wanna kind of end on this note, is from a, a manager leadership or organizational perspective, I, I really think this conversation gives us a great way to think about this. One, we wanna help people build resiliency over time. So when they hit stress, it becomes more of a motivator than something that, uh, throws them into a more sympathetic anxiety or even fight or flight sort of response. Dave, your wife's example was a beautiful one to, to throw in, uh, with that. So we wanna do all the, the H R V training, uh, you know, as well as tracking to ensure that our habits are promoting a healthy, resilient, nervous system, uh, with that, and then apply a manageable but challenging amount of stress that I always, always like the idea of thinking about eustress is good stress is, um, too much eustress will turn into distress eventually as well.
Speaker 1 00:33:15 So we're applying a manageable amount of stress where we're probably checking in with people, we're probably managing that if we're tracking heart rate variability and we're putting up pressure on a team to track, hey, are they maintaining good heart rate variability, even though they're under more stress throughout this time? And I just, you know, this is where I think heart rate variability gives us such a insight to where they're at in that inverted curve. Are, are they, are they operating in the optimal level? Because what I see too much with business, we got a big deadline to make, but we're putting so much pressure on that eventually, and for too long that that turns into distress, and now all of a sudden we're losing creativity, cognitive flexibility, innovation, and we wonder why the project didn't turn out. Okay. So I'm gonna shut up just any other insight, uh, on this from, from the leadership and management perspective.
Speaker 3 00:34:14 So, uh, so what, what you're saying about, you know, peaking and, and everything like that, you know, that's, uh, that's exactly what every athlete is going for. Um, that's exactly what, you know, I'm, what everyone is going for leading up to, you know, like you said, a keynote presentation or anything like that. Uh, we, we just may not know it, right? But, uh, but intuitively, uh, I think we all kind of have that, we have that gut feeling about, uh, Hey, you know what? I have something big coming up tomorrow. I should make sure that I get a good night's sleep tonight, right? Yeah. Um, you know, and, and, and hey, what do you know? Uh, sleep is, is one of the biggest factors in, uh, you know, in how your h I v is gonna be the next day too, right? Um, so making sure that we peak at that right moment is, uh, is, is huge.
Speaker 3 00:35:01 And with the tress turning into, uh, into distress as well, um, I always look at, uh, and I apologize to listeners if I've said this on here before, but, uh, but I always look at things as being situationally. Uh, you know, we have, we have all these types of, you know, stressors in our life or, uh, like to call the life metrics, right? And, uh, and we have things that are always good for you, things that are always gonna be bad for you, and then things that are situational and, and it is those good stressors, you know, quote unquote good stressors like exercise. Um, you know, that these things might be great for you, but when you do them in the wrong way or you do them too much or too often, um, they do become a detrimental thing to you. So, uh, so everything is situational, and that's where H R V is just such an amazing tool to use with this, right?
Speaker 3 00:35:59 Um, uh, like, you know, with, with, uh, we'll, we'll go back to my wife's example. Hopefully she doesn't listen to this podcast and we've talking about her the whole time. Um, but, uh, but you know, maybe she was, you know, uh, she was going perfectly exactly how she wanted, right? And then she had this situation happen, but what do you think happened to her? Did that, did that fill her gas tank, right, or, or did it, or did it totally drain? And, and that is a big drain, and that's an unexpected giant drain. So what do you do from that? Especially if you have to go and perform right after that? Yeah. Right? Now, now you're in this horrible situation where your brain is spinning, your gas tank is totally empty. Well, now we have to go recharge your battery, right? So, um, so what do you do to recharge your battery? And in a situation like that, is going for a run gonna help? No, that's gonna drain your battery more, right? Um, maybe going for a walk out in the sunshine, uh, doing some meditation, doing some breathing, uh, that kind of stuff. Will, those things are always going to be positive, you know, um, battery chargers, right? Uh, you know, or, or we're going to, you know, level out our cup, right? Uh, so that's, uh, that's how I always like to look at those kinds of things. Um, and I,
Speaker 1 00:37:19 Yeah, and I, I'll just say I pull out my phone now four breaths per minute because it is the best breathing rate out there as far as I'm concerned. And, and I do, I I do some RF breathing because I, that, that's, to me, like, has been such a key coping skill that, like before training, yeah, people might wanna talk to me, but if I get a few minutes to play around with my slides, I've got the pacer right there as, as well. So that's been such a huge, uh, quick, like maybe I have two minutes. Getting me sort of back at that peak has just been such a useful thing, you know, I'll give you the last word coming out here with any other thoughts you might have on this great topic.
Speaker 2 00:37:59 Um, I would just echo what the two of you, um, have said, um, that just because something is fun and wonderful and exciting doesn't mean we don't need some downtime. Uh, right. You know, we can be engaging in absolutely like, you know, youth stress, uh, uh, activities. Uh, you know, they can be the best thing ever. We can be so excited about it. Uh, but if we don't give ourselves a break, we, I'm gonna end up in trouble, uh, as well. So just to, you know, keeping that in mind. Um, we, we always need, uh, downtime and our needs for downtime vary, and we need to get to know ourselves and our needs and be able to fill
Speaker 1 00:38:36 That. Think about recovery as a verb. Uh, what are you gonna do, right? To get back up to there because you're like, we can't maintain that level all the time. So, like I said, think about recovery as an aspect of performance, and the athletes of the world have given us great role models, um, to, to do this about thinking about the more you need to be up at that peak, that optimal level. I, I just think recovery becomes more and more. I know because of what you all have taught me, that recovery becomes such an important aspect of that. And I think that's a great way to wrap up this brilliant episode. So I wanna thank everybody for joining us today. Uh, we'll get, uh, chapter eight up next week. So, uh, thank you for taking this journey with us. Again, you can get a free copy of the book at optimal h r v.com, find a whole bunch of resources, show notes, and all that fun stuff as well. So even, and Dave, this has been a great, uh, pleasure. I must enjoy this as much, if not more, than writing the book itself. So I, I love to, to talk about this, uh, and, uh, process it all with you. So thank you both so much, and, uh, we'll see everybody next week. Thank you.
