Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of optimal LLC and optimal HR-v. Check us out at optimal hr-v dot com. Please enjoy the show. Welcome friends to the Heart rate Variability podcast. I am Matt Bennett here with my good friends Dr. Dave Hopper. Dr. You know, za, uh, we are here, uh, to further our conversation about the heartbeat of business. Uh, so if you're new to the podcast, welcome. We are so glad you're here, and we'd love you to stop this episode and go back to episode one of this series.
Speaker 0 00:00:55 You might be a little lost if you don't. We, we are going through the audiobook version of the Heartbeat of Business and, uh, talking about each chapter, um, as we're going through the book. So if you jump in now, you can listen, see if you like us, but, uh, really encourage you to go back to chapter one or episode one of this series. Uh, so, so you, when you get to this episode, you will feel like it, uh, makes a little bit more sense. So, um, I'm really excited to talk about engagement today. Uh, this is where I, I I really saw, uh, the job demands and resource model, uh, really when we talk about stress and business outcomes, performance outcomes, engagement, uh, uh, really fit into both heart rate variability and this model in, in a great way. So, Dave, I know you have a question for me to start us out today, so, uh, I will, uh, turn it over to you, uh, to, to host.
Speaker 1 00:01:51 Well, well, thank you, Matt. Um, so, so as we dig into this next chapter, uh, we want to throw the question at Matt of how, how does that relationship work between engagement, uh, and heart rate variability? So what, what are we looking at there, Matt? How, how engaged somebody is in, uh, in any given task and, uh, and how that correlates with heart rate variability.
Speaker 0 00:02:15 Absolutely. So, so again, and, you know, you've got these printouts, uh, on the, uh, our website, so you can download the book for free if you haven't done that. Just the, the visuals can be a really good resource for you. But if you look at the top line of the job demands and resources model, you know, really on one hand we're measuring the stress response. And as we've talked about throughout the series, as the book has talked about, if distress overwhelms my personal resources and the resources given by the organization, that's where I hit burnout. So that top line, and that's where we get negative business outcomes, that top line H R V gives us a really good measure for. How is my team doing today? How is my team doing this month? Um, how are we doing since this new initiative around employee wellness happening?
Speaker 0 00:03:07 Then we have the bottom line, which again, I really think if we do a good job of the top line it provides, and this is a little bit of my language, I'll own that, the opportunity for engagement to happen. And if, if we're burned out, we're likely to struggle with engagement. Um, that's what the model shows us. I don't think I'm breaking any news to anybody. If we're burnt, we're not as engaged in our work, we're not as excited about our work. So as leaders, as managers, or as teammates, when we're able to succeed at creating a healthy worker, a healthy us, a healthy team, then we have the capacity for engagement. Um, and that is really where we, we start out with this chapter. Um, looking at, once we've done that, uh, we have the, the engagement piece. And this is where I, I would love, uh, to, to bring in and give credit to the Gallup 12.
Speaker 0 00:04:05 Uh, this is the Gallup Q 12 has been, if there's been one piece of research that guided my thinking as a business person, as a, a leader, as a manager, uh, since I've, uh, picked up first break all the rules in, uh, 1999, their first book, it's been the Gallup, uh, 12. And there's these, and we, we outlined these in the book. Uh, I'm gonna ask you, uh, some of my favorites on here and why you think they, uh, applied to engagement. But, um, this is, Gallup's done this huge research study, these 12, uh, and they used to be questions. They reframed these, which I love as a therapist and into statements. They've kept the cue. I just think for fun. But it really gives us, if you think about heart rate variability measures, uh, the health and wellness of the organization, otherwise, that top line of the job demands, resources model, I really think, and I I'm not, I'm not rocket science to come up with this, that, that the, the Gallup Q 12 measures the bottom line.
Speaker 0 00:05:06 So how well are we doing, really engaging our workforce, um, getting motivated, getting them, uh, really on that activation line as we talked about in our, in our last, uh, conversation, where there is that, that activation, that energy, uh, mixed in with that ventral vagal break. So energy plus executive functioning is going to most often not lead to good performance. So, you know, we, I know most people have read or listened to the chapter. So, you know, I wanna put out here some of my favorite questions and, and I want from an r v perspective, I'd love to get your thoughts. You know, I'll, I'll start you out with this one. Uh, cause cause it is by far my, my favorite of all time is one of the Gallup 12 is I have a best friend at work. Um, so I love this cuz I was in grad school. I was in my MBA program when this came out. Uh, so it was fun for me because I'm like, I'd ask all my professors, like, especially the accounting folks, like how, why, why is having a best friend improve my financial outcomes and they would go into a seizure and, uh, you know, not wanna talk to me ever again. So, Iena, let me throw it out to you. Uh, but why do you think the best friend at work is, uh, so important?
Speaker 2 00:06:29 Well, I think, uh, primarily because our social support, uh, is one of our primary ways of coping with stress. Um, and given how much time we spent at work and how mu how many challenges come our way, um, having a natural, uh, way of, uh, coping, uh, coping with stress right there built in Yeah. Um, is, uh, is really helpful. Right. You know, we know that, um, there is a strong correlation between social engagement, um, and heart rate variability, right? Um, and, uh, you know, we know that, you know, oxytocin, um, that, you know, we talked about at one of our previous, uh, yes, um, uh, episodes, you know, which is technically a stress hormone, but it gets released in response to, um, you know, being in touch with other human beings and or other beings. You know, here we, I'm assuming we're talking about human best friends. Yes. <laugh>. Um, so, so, um, all sorts of good things happen when we're able to connect, uh, with a supportive, kind, compassionate, uh, person right there in the workplace without having to wait until we get home to talk to a partner or, you know, someone else or without having to make a phone call.
Speaker 0 00:07:38 Yeah. And, and this is one of the ones where I think it's a, it's how well we do setting up a healthy culture. Because I've also seen, seen best friends at work. Uh, you know, sometimes we call this, it might be a little bit over dramatic for this situation, but I, I've actually seen it in some real dysfunctional places I've worked that we can also trauma bond with each other. So if we're in a very dysregulated, unhealthy workplace, my best friend is going to be my support to either try to just keep ourselves safe within the organizational system or to fight management. So, you know, it's, it's an interesting double-edged sword that, uh, we, we kind of have to be, uh, aware of as managers is that bond is actually a good thing. Ed no, you're not in the business of creating best friends, but I mean, I, I love working with both of you.
Speaker 0 00:08:31 You know, every time, you know, we have our meetings or, you know, individual or as a group, I get really excited cuz there's some of my favorite times of the week cause get a catch up on all the great working is doing and all the, the trainings Dave's doing. And it's just like so much fun for that as well. I mean, you two are some of my biggest motivators, my biggest, uh, sources of engagement, uh, is we do, uh, work at optimal as well. So, Dave, I'm gonna give you another one cause I I know you kinda oversee teams in that as well. Is my supervisor or somebody at work seems to care about me as a person? Well, why should I care about you as a person, Dave? Well, what, what's going on here?
Speaker 1 00:09:15 Well, I I, that is just, uh, that should go without saying right? <laugh>, um, it feeling cared about knowing, knowing that somebody cares about you, knowing that somebody loves you. Um, that is one of the most important things that we can have. Um, you know, I I talk about a way to a, avoid depression. You know, surround yourself with people that love you, that you share a positive bond with in some way. Um, and, and granted, um, we know there's different levels of love, right? Uh, right. Like, I can love you, you guys as my different love than the what I have, uh, for my wife, right? Or my kids. Um, but, uh, but absolutely, you know, if I go into work and I feel like I am not appreciated by my supervisor, yeah. Am I gonna wanna do a good job for that person?
Speaker 1 00:10:04 Uh, number one A and number two, am I going to, am I gonna be looking forward to going into work, or am I gonna be dreading going into work? Right? Uh, you know, those are huge factors when I know that I, when I come in, there's gonna be a smiling face. There's gonna be somebody to greet me, somebody to say, Hey, Dave, you know, you did a great job yesterday on X, Y, Z, uh, and just wanted to give you a high five for that, right? Or somebody who even just asks, Hey, how was your weekend? Right? You know, rather than, uh, rather than straight to straight to, Hey, you messed up whatever last week and we need to get, you know, we need to get your, your story straight here and whatever <laugh>, you know, whatever it may be. There are, there are times where as a supervisor you need to be strict, but showing, uh, showing gratitude show, showing that as a supervisor you care about your workers, um, that is, that is of the utmost importance. Or, um, or they won't want to show up. They won't wanna do a good job, they will not be engaged, right? Uh, all they'll be thinking about is what time is it? How soon do I leave? Right?
Speaker 0 00:11:09 Yeah. So absolutely th this one, like the, the, the most powerful piece of Gallup that, that I've seen, and I'll be honest with you, as a trainer, I almost want this to be every other slide in my leadership trainings. It's that important. I don't know where to put it. Like, do I put in the engagement section? It seems to wait, it seems to be too late, so I wanna like bring it up. But then it's like, it's about engagement. But the, so the, the research that, that I just find fascinating is the number one predictor of engagement is whether or not your leader, your manager, your supervisor, cares about you as a human being. That is the, that is the where in many ways the Gallup Q 12 is, is sort of one, or when we talk about it, doesn't somebody care about you? Does your wellbeing matter to your leadership?
Speaker 0 00:12:00 And that's not something you get in a lot of traditional business books. Now that has shifted. It's been, it's kind of fun to be old sometimes, cuz you get a watch, you get watched trend shift over time where like, oh, we're just all cogs of this machine, you know, this behavioralist sort of approach to a factory like assembly line. And what we've really found is like, it's about being somebody caring about your, your wellbeing. And so that's where I, I think where I struggle with where to put this is that should really be, when we talk about providing resources to folks, that's where they need to feel that on the top line as well, right? So in some ways, feeling cared about your, as a human being. Um, you know, me as a manager cares about your wellness. Uh, should, should really be also seen as a resource, but also allows you to shift into that engagement as well.
Speaker 0 00:12:57 And I guess a question for, for both of you, ina I might, I might start with you to kind of, uh, wrap this short, uh, uh, uh, follow up to the chapter up is as, as a manager, I think we get pulled, um, on one hand we gotta get people to perform, you know, especially as kind of, oh, we're in this environment where you hear about layoffs, productivity, you know, we gotta care about money again. Um, gotta show up to the office because now, you know, the organization has a little bit more power. You know, how would you look at balancing high performance, um, and showing someone you care about their wellbeing? Because I think those don't necessarily have to be conflictual, but I think for, so I need you to work this weekend. I need you to work the, you know, an overnight tonight to get this project done. I think that there is a struggle for a lot of supervisors is, well, I just can't sit around tell 'em how much I love them all the time. Um, I need them to get work done. I just kinda wonder if you have any thoughts on about how we balance those things as leaders or supervisors?
Speaker 2 00:14:09 Yeah, I think, um, this is a really good question. I'm gonna echo what Dave, um, said a few minutes ago. When you've set up a, um, relationship with the, you know, with your, with the people at work for you, that's based on seeing them as people that's based on kindness and understanding and support. Um, tho those people will be so much more likely to respond positively to extra requests. You know, I really need you to work this weekend. Right? You, you know, if you are asked that by supervisor who is generally mean and, uh, unpleasant and non-supportive, it's gonna be really tough for you to say yes to that. Yeah. Uh, whereas if it's a supervisor that's kind, um, and uh, validates your efforts and recognizing them and you know, you, you'll feel seen by that person, it's gonna be so much more, uh, acceptable to say, you know what, yes, I will, I will do you a favor, I will do this thing, you know, I will sacrifice my weekend.
Speaker 2 00:15:06 Yeah. Um, so I think in large part, it's the kind of relationship that you set up from the very beginning. Um, and no, you can't, you can't always sit around, you know, telling everybody how much you love them. Um, but you know, that's the case in, in your family as well, right? Yeah. Sometimes, you know, we, you know, we love our kids and we wanna just sit around telling them how much we love them, but sometimes we have to enforce some discipline and sometimes we have to put in place consequences and it sucks, but we have to, right? Yeah. It's for their wellbeing. Uh, and if the foundation, um, of the family relationship is one of trust and attachment and safety, yeah. Then we can do that right? Then, you know, the consequences become a learning experience. Um, in a similar way, you know, with our work family, right?
Speaker 2 00:15:48 If we set up, uh, a relationship that's safe and mutually supportive and validating, um, you know, where people feel seen, um, then you can provide, uh, criticism Yeah. You know, constructive criticism. You can say, you know what, hmm, um, this, this didn't work out the way I was hoping, uh, it would work out. And, you know, I think, uh, this could have been done better and I'm wondering what got in the way of you being able to get this project done all time. Yeah. Um, but, you know, all of that is much more likely to go smoothly when there is a foundation, uh, foundation of trust.
Speaker 0 00:16:21 I love it. I love it. And, and really looking at that, like, uh, we've already talked, you know, spent time thinking about the supervisors or the manager of the leader as a resource, as a person. And this is where, this is where I have trouble figuring out where this slide goes. Like, because on one hand I want to cover the trust, the psychological safety, uh, the honesty, uh, before I get to this slide. And yet, like I said, I wanted to also be the title of my entire presentation because it, it's something that we know like only 10% of people according to Gallup, see themselves as a vital asset to the organization. I think 50% stated, I don't, my supervisor doesn't care about my wellbeing at all, and I'm working mostly with nonprofit healthcare people. None of the data says we do any better. We, we, we should know better, but it doesn't mean it necessarily translates into our, our leadership, uh, style. So that, that's really that big piece, uh, that we do. Dave, I just like, uh, throw that question to you too, balancing that that high performance, which is often like whooshing people wi with that, that caring about their, their wellbeing.
Speaker 1 00:17:31 Yeah. It, it's a, it's a very difficult balance. Um, because, because you can easily tip the other way too where somebody sees you friend than they do as a supervisor. Yeah. Uh, and then when you do make a request, you're like, no, dude, I can't do that. I'm going, you know, I'm going to this party this weekend. Yeah. And that's way more important, you know? Yeah. And I, so you don't want to tip that balance too far to the other direction, you know? I, and it does get tricky to, to maintain a, you know, we're friendly and I do genuinely care about you, but we still have to get this work done. And, um, and I love the way that Ina, you know, I ina stated her, her way to support somebody and her way to ask what happened. Uh, you know, asking a question like that is so much better than saying this up.
Speaker 1 00:18:25 You, you suck. Right? Like, we can't say that, uh, <laugh> or people or people aren't gonna be happy about it. So, but we can, but we can say, what was going on here? You know, was there something happening at home that interfered with work? You know, um, is there some way that I can help support you in doing a better dress? You know, um, you know, what got in the way here? And, um, and, and that's, that is so important, um, you know, to, to always be there to support them in one way or another. And especially, um, you know, as, uh, as we deal with the younger generations coming into the workforce, um, that is, uh, that has been a very tricky spot for, uh, for us, perfection is, um, is that it. You have to really validate, uh, what they're doing and really show that you care before you can ever ask a qu a question or a favor. Um, so that's been, uh, that as well has been, has been different cuz Yeah. When, uh, you know, our parents, our bosses, it was quite a bit Yeah. Different, uh, the, to talk to, uh, well, well we, we,
Speaker 0 00:19:31 We talk about recognition on, in this chapter as well. And I, I think you bring up a good point, and something I'm hearing more and more in in my trainings is like, why don't people able just show up and do their jobs? And, you know, it's so funny being a Genin Xer because we were supposed to be like the downfall of western culture. Like we, we never got off the couch. All we did was wear flannel. I'm still a little worried my jeans are too baggy to be socially appropriate. I'm really struggling with this right now. Cause everybody makes fun of Michael Jordan's baggy jeans, and I'm like, oh, they should see my jeans. They're, they're really baggy. Like, yeah. Like, so it's like, you know, so having, being older, it's one of those good things. It's like, oh, we were, we were that generation.
Speaker 0 00:20:16 Not, not too, too long ago. And I believe I'm the oldest one on this call too, so I, I get that, uh, uh, uh, designation is the old man on the podcast. So, you know, but it, but it's interesting because we've got, especially in a time of high burnout, high stress, we, we all know that we have a negative bias, right? So human beings are designed to really pay more attention to the negative than the positive is sort of our default, um, setting. You know, and that's kept us alive, right? If, if we wanna, maybe, yeah, what's the saying? Uh, it's better to run away from a stick thinking it was a stick than pick up a snake thinking it was a stick. So if we err a little bit on the negative, it's been a really good thing for us overall. But if you'll add a whole bunch of stress to an environment, it just reinforces that negative bias.
Speaker 0 00:21:06 And so I think what the Gallup, uh, Q 12 really tells us in many ways is how do we offset that? And that's where recognition is a balance. And this brings in some of the growth mindset research from Carol Dweck is, you know, as leaders really focusing on specific behaviors. I'm not gonna spend a lot of time telling you what a great person you are. That is not what we're talking about with caring about somebody's wellbeing. It's recognizing certain behaviors and sort of shifting the bias more looking for the positives, um, uh, in the system instead of the negatives. Cause there'll always be negatives there. And the more stress we get, and ina if I'm correct here, or if you've got any other, uh, research, you know, I'm assuming the more stress we get, the more, uh, the negative bias becomes. So using some of these strategies to really help off shift that I, I think can be really powerful, uh, and necessary in today's world too.
Speaker 2 00:22:01 Yeah. Um, I, I absolutely agree. Um, I think another point, excuse me to, uh, to add here is that when we get stressed, we're much more likely to fall back on old habits, uh, which include that negative bias, right? Because that's built in, that's as old as it gets. Um, and even if we've learned some different strategies, when we get really stressed, we, we still fall back onto the, uh, old habits. So I think it shows just how important it is to be setting up, um, positive coping strategies as early as possible, um, so that those have a greater chance of becoming more dominant, uh, strategies. So when things get really stressful, um, we're just a little bit less likely to fall back onto the old ones.
Speaker 0 00:22:48 Absolutely. Great. Great point. You know, that the final piece that I wanna do is, I have been thinking about this a lot in, uh, industries that are just an absolute crisis right now. And I would throw healthcare, social services, uh, education as systems that might not be sustainable when you look at what's happening. We knew there was gonna be a nursing shortage. It's hit us now. Um, people aren't just having trouble staffing, um, or paying triple the rate to get staff, you know? And so we've hit this, and I, and I've, I've been thinking a lot about, okay, how do we, how do we tangibly show this? And one of the things that I've really challenged people is most people hopefully have like an employee assistance program where they, uh, they offer free therapy sessions, uh, for folks. And, you know, so if I'm struggling with something personally, I think it's totally appropriate for a supervisor to say, Hey, you know, we have this great resource.
Speaker 0 00:23:44 Here's the information. I, I encourage leaders to reach out and know what that system's like themselves. So, uh, it kind of takes the stigma away from accessing it to, uh, leaders out there. So, hey, I called up, it took me two weeks to get in, but it really helped me overcome some issues I was dealing with. I just think that's a really good message to give. But it, so many people right now, one of their stresses or even traumas have been from the work that they've been doing and going through the pandemic, uh, that has just put a lot of stress in people's cups, so to speak. And so think about the difference of what we're talking about here, instead of saying, Hey, we have this resource is, Hey, we have this resource and if you choose to engage in it, we're gonna give you time at work to engage in virtual therapy.
Speaker 0 00:24:32 So we're gonna actually pay you to overcome the burnout and process the burnout with a therapist. One is showing, yeah, we care about you two is saying, we really care about you. And I don't have any data to say one approach gets you a, increases your profit margin by 1%. But I think in a time of extreme burnout that we're in right now in a lot of industries, looking for those ways to say, Hey, I don't wanna only use your vacation time like we talked about, but I'm gonna give you a half day on Monday so you don't have to worry about all those emails until you get back. And we're gonna give you time to catch up on that. So I would really encourage leaders right now, be aggressive with this. Again, still we're not eliminating expectations. Those are so crucial. Um, that's gonna get us on that peak, uh, elevation of, yep, we got the energy, but we got the ventral vago activation as well. Uh, but again, showing people that we care and going above and beyond right now is so key. So, absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:25:32 Can I add one thing to that? Oh, please do. Um, I think very much in line with this, you know, there is some data floating out there that people are much more likely, uh, to leave managers than they are to leave jobs. Yes. Right? Yes. So, you know, it just shows you how important it is, you know, as a manager, as a leader, to show people that you care about them. Because when they feel seen, when they feel, you know, supportive, validated, et cetera, and when they feel important, um, they're gonna be much less likely to wanna get away from you. Right? Right. So, you know, as far as data goes, retention, right? And this day and age, you know, worker retention is key. Um, you're gonna be retaining, uh, uh, good people with, uh, much higher, um, you know, much higher percent, uh,
Speaker 0 00:26:11 Absolutely success. And we know that the turnover usually cost about nine months salary of that position to get a new person hired and up to speed. So an hour a week for a couple weeks to engage in therapy to overcome their burnout. Very small investment, very small inve investment. Dave, you got any other thoughts before we, uh, wrap this one up?
Speaker 1 00:26:35 Um, yeah, you know what I, something cool that my mom, uh, actually said to me when I was very young. Uh, she, uh, she said to me that, you know, you can, you can choose to be happier, you can choose to be mad. And she said, uh, you know, um, and you can choose to like somebody, or you can choose to something good about every person. And she goes, if you just choose to see the good thing about each person, you'll always be happy. And, um, and it's funny because when, you know, when you start to apply that and you just don't even realize that it's happening, right? It's just become who you are. You always choose to see the positive about people. You always choose to see something nice, nice, um, a happy, good, positive person to be around. Um, and I, you know, I just, um, it's never too late to start that habit of seeing the good, of seeing the positive. I, because I know you were talking about the, uh, the negative earlier. So I wanted to toss that in there as well.
Speaker 0 00:27:30 I think that's a great way to wrap us up today, my friend. So I wanna thank everybody for joining us. Obviously at this point of our journey. You know, you can download the book for free at optimal h r v.com, uh, with this, uh, so I want thank you for joining us. Uh, we will get the next chapter out next week, and, uh, we'll, uh, be in your feed soon. So everybody have a wonderful day. We will see you next week.
Speaker 1 00:27:54 Bye everyone. Bye-bye.
