Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of optimal LLC and optimal HR-v. Check us out at optimal hr-v dot com. Please enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Welcome France to the Heart rate variability podcast. I'm Matt Bennett. I'm back here with Dr. Ina Hasan and Dr. David Hopper to talk about chapter three in our book. So, uh, uh, we were chatting a little bit. It seems like our listening numbers have gone up pretty dramatically. So, um, if you're new to the podcast, welcome, uh, you picked us up at a good time. I just encourage you maybe to rewind a few episodes because we are in the middle of the book series. And so we're publishing a chapter from the audio book every week. And then the three of us are getting together to, uh, chat about, uh, each of the chapters. So if you're joining us, uh, you probably listen to this one. I'm not gonna tell you to hit stop, but you're probably gonna get more of this if you just go back a few weeks, uh, to the start of this series.
Speaker 1 00:01:20 So, uh, with that said, uh, chapter three, uh, title job demands, h r V and burnout. And I'm gonna start us out here with a, a model that we present in the book. And again, if you listen to the chapter last week, obviously we lay this out, but the job demands and resources model for me was, uh, a challenge to myself, Beck in, in 2020. I had the, the real honor to work with healthcare workers in New York City, uh, specifically nurses. And, um, I don't want anybody to go back there too much visually, but if you can think about what was going on in New York City in the spring of 2020, uh, it was really traumatic. Uh, the, we didn't have enough, uh, protective gear, uh, emergency rooms, ICUs, ventilators, morgues, everything was just being overwhelmed. And, and I started to talk to the providers at the center of all this.
Speaker 1 00:02:20 And why I call it a great gift is that I could see what was going to hit everybody. Um, you know what, what, while it was centered initially in New York, this huge outbreak, um, there was nothing about a contagious respiratory virus that didn't make me think this was going to be in Boston, in Chicago, in Denver, and everywhere else, uh, in the country and in the world. And so it really challenged me, even though I'd been doing leadership trainings for a decade or two at that point, to really dive back into the literature because I, I saw this like enormous, uh, wave of stress and trauma that was hitting those folks in New York I was talking to early on. But, but I knew was going to hit everybody eventually. And so, um, as I like to say, I went to the dark side, a place that I don't like to visit very often.
Speaker 1 00:03:13 And when I put my toe in, in, I want to get out as quickly as possible. And that is peer reviewed journal articles. Uh, I kind of wish we'd write these where they beat you up instead of making you question your career choices whenever you dive into those. But I, I went to that dark side and, uh, started to really look for models to help folks say, okay, we're going to get hit by this wave. And we're in some ways just going to go into survival mode for a period of time. And how, when we come out of that, how do we help manage the distress and trauma that for a lot of our listeners who might be in healthcare, social services, education, the criminal justice system, already we were burned out at a very high level before this all hit. What, how do we look at this in a peer reviewed best practice model?
Speaker 1 00:04:04 And so the job demands and resource model, uh, made it into the book because it really is just backed by 20 plus years of really strong research. And I, I really believe gives leaders a real model to look at the, the, uh, relationship between distress and outcomes. And, and for me, any training I do, the goal is to improve outcomes. Any coaching I do, how do we give better outcomes for patients? And we can also say the model gives us for the business as well, lower turnover rates, um, lower number of mistakes, uh, less, uh, legal troubles, you know, uh, better bottom line, all those things happen when we have healthy, healthy workers. So, um, again, I don't wanna revisit what we talked about in the book, but really looking and starting to introduce this model to really look at a, a way, uh, that leaders can look to manage distress inherent to the work.
Speaker 1 00:05:04 Cuz every job has that level of distress. What I also got really excited about is using heart rate variability to start to quantify burnout. Because again, if you, if you look at, uh, what's in the book or you Google job demands and resources model, you know, we know if the distress from the job overwhelms the resources that the organization provides to manage that distress. That's where we see burnout. Um, burnout being, what I like to say is the stress in our environment becomes, you know, starts to challenge our coping skills. Uh, you know, I I I I kind of a trauma response though, I think in the early stages of burnout, we may just be more exhausted than in a fight flight or shutdown response. We're starting to, uh, we got too much, uh, stress in our cup for too long a period of time.
Speaker 1 00:06:00 So I know we throw out some ideas in the book about, you know, maybe if your seven day average is below your all time average, that, that might be an early warning sign. Uh, but I would love to throw it, uh, Dave, I'll go to you first on this one. Um, I know who was somebody who is obsessive like me checking heart rate variability every morning and probably several times throughout the day. Now, I wonder, you know, as you look at, uh, H R V as, uh, potentially early warning sign of burnout, work, distress, maybe even your cup may yeah. Challenging that window of tolerance a little too much. Just love after years of tracking this, uh, for yourself, just sort of, uh, some insight that you might have about, uh, what, what you look for to say, okay, I, I need to start thinking about how I, what I'm gonna do so I don't get worse and see my numbers drop even lower.
Speaker 2 00:06:57 Oh, absolutely, Matt. Um, so, so as we, uh, we touched on in our, in our last episode that, you know, the, the day-to-day variation, yes, you can look at that, but it's those bigger trends, like when we start to pull out to a week, to a month, to a season, um, those kinds of trends are gonna be where we really, where we really see something, you know, possibly, you know, uh, dramatic, uh, possibly, uh, something, you know, dangerous from a health standpoint, uh, you know, starting to take place. So, um, so when we start to see a trend going down over a week and we don't see that recovery happening, well, that's a warning sign that all right, you know, I, I better, I better pull it back together. Um, you know, I better lighten my load. Uh, you know, whether that is, um, whether that is offloading some stressors or whether that is, um, you know, whether that is adding in some more me time, some more happy time, um, some more positivity in my life, uh, whatever that may be.
Speaker 2 00:07:56 Um, but then when you see that really start to carry into two weeks, into three weeks in new month, uh, now this is something that is becoming long-term. This is something that is becoming, um, you know, a chronic problem. And without a doubt, uh, will start to lead to breakdown of the system in some way. So, um, you know, you can look at it as the cup starting to overfill. Uh, you can look at it as well, like, you know, I, like you have a gas pedal stomped down on your car for far too long, right? And, uh, and how long can you drive with the gas pedal all the way to the floor before something breaks on your car? Right? Um, you wouldn't do that to your car. So why would you do that to yourself? Uh, you know, you can look at it that way too, right?
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Um, at what point are you gonna stop and, you know, just have the mechanic check out your car? Uh, you know, so, um, so it's, it's no different with us. We have our own gauges. Um, and, and H R V is one of the best gauges, um, because it's looking into our autonomic nerve system, uh, the, the system that manages all within our body, right? So, uh, so yes, uh, as you start to see those trends drop, that, that is a clear indication to, uh, to pull off the road to, uh, to go to a maintenance shop, right? So, <laugh>, yeah, uh,
Speaker 1 00:09:09 Greg, great way. Get a start. You know, I wonder what, what your thoughts are on this.
Speaker 3 00:09:15 I love Dave's metaphor of a car. Um, and, um, you know, to perseverate on that point for a moment, cuz I think it's so important, we take care of our cars better than we take care of ourselves so often, right? You know, if, uh, you know, no way are we, you know, driving with the gas pedal all the way down for, uh, for too long and, you know, if the car is selling you, service needed, service needed, we're, you know, hightailing our, our way to the mechanic, right? Um, and we don't always do that for ourselves. Um, sometimes it's because we don't know. But now with H R V, we really don't have that excuse, uh, because we do know. And, uh, we can know we can choose, uh, to keep track. We can choose to take those, uh, uh, morning readings so that we can pinpoint, uh, as Dave mentioned, you know, those early warning signs where, uh, things are, you know, relatively easy, uh, to reverse, right?
Speaker 3 00:10:15 Maybe just, uh, it might just require that step back, you know, oh, maybe I haven't been sleeping as much, or just a little too much on my plate, right? You know, what can I do now? Uh, or if something is settling into a more long term, um, issue that's not being addressed by those small changes, uh, re that really requires a deeper dive, you know, what is going on, right? Maybe at this point, it's, uh, um, requires a visit to your physician or conversation with your boss or, you know, whatever, uh, you think, um, might be going on. So, uh, you know, the exact answer really is going to be individual, but the point is, do take care of it, right? You know, you're not gonna be of in any use to anyone else if you're not taking good care of yourself,
Speaker 1 00:11:00 Right? And we, we talk about a little later on in the chapter, identifying your warning signs, and we talk about that, uh, from, from a physical, uh, you know, a, a kind of emotional or mental health, also a social, uh, aspect in different ways, just sort of track. And, and I, I think, you know, in, in a lot of the H R V stuff, we talk about the objective and the subjective go together. So really looking at, you know, your early warning sign might be as a, as a non-reader, I'm in awe of you, uh, uh, that do this hard work and then come home and raise healthy children. Uh, you know, I, I just like, I never quite figured out when you had, or how'd you got the energy? Do that. So it might be, uh, you know, I, I like to joke a lot of times is like, my wife and I can hold it together all day at work, but then sometimes the ugly comes home.
Speaker 1 00:11:50 That's why we never had children. Cuz it's like, didn't wanna, like, who has energy to feed the children tonight? Nobody. So probably, uh, we did the responsible thing. Uh, so, you know, there, there's all those aspects. And H R V can really, what I have found, give just a little bit of an earlier indicator and maybe one that you can't as easily ignore or justify, right? Well, my kids just say too much sugar. That's why I was cranky right there. There's those things that, that we can get, um, that, that I think H R V just gives us that ability to, to really track in an important way. Um, I, I also loved it to hear, because one of the other things we challenge folks to do is when you start to get these early warning signs to take action, right? Because, uh, we talked about the stages of burnout as well in, in this chapter about ex, you know, you wanna be healthy, motivated, engaged, as much as possible.
Speaker 1 00:12:49 That's, that's really the goal of a wellness plan of this focus. But then from time to time, we're going to at least dip our toe or step into exhaustion phase. I think if you have a stressful job at all or a stressful life, you're gonna be in there. So, Dave, I wonder, you know, over the years, as somebody who's really focused on this, I, I wonder if you have any, like, short-term plans. You see maybe that we, we kind of use a 15, uh, percent drop in weekly versus all time. When you start to see that, well, what are some of the things that, that you do to, to really get back out of there before things progress and get worse?
Speaker 2 00:13:29 Yes. Uh, and actually before we get into that, well, well, a couple of things. One is, uh, I love your term, a non-reader <laugh>. Uh, that was, uh, that made me laugh. Um, but, uh, but with the early warning signs, um, so how I put that to patients too is, is that early warning signs are different for every single one of us. Yeah, right? But, but we all have a weak link in our chain, right? And, and for you that might be that your stomach starts to get upset, right? You start to get indigestion really bad. Um, some people it might be constipation. Um, you know, for, for me, it might be that my shoulder just starts killing me. Uh, for ina it might be that she gets these horrible headaches and she starts clenching her jaw. You know? Um, it can be literally anything, but it, that is our sign that our body is starting to take on this added stress and that it is starting to become an issue.
Speaker 2 00:14:26 Um, a lot of us don't see it as an early warning sign. A lot of us just see it as, well, shit, I'm constipated again. Right? Uh, you know, um, and they just see it as an annoying thing. But no, this is your body screaming, right? This is your, this is your flashing light on your dashboard saying, Hey, something is going wrong. Fix it. Um, so when we see that, right? When we have that as from a subjective and, and kind of an objective standpoint as well, and then we have our objective HR-V showing us that we are dropping down. Mm-hmm. Um, and then when we get into some of those strategies, I, and that's what you're asking for, is like, specific strategies that I use, correct? Yep. Okay. Um, so, so for me, um, I, I always check back and I go, all right, have I been doing my, my regular stuff, right?
Speaker 2 00:15:16 Which is, um, number one, am I sleeping well? Right? And, uh, and because, uh, because I am a breeder and I have two little kids, the answer's usually no <laugh> Yeah. To that one. Um, so, uh, so I do whatever I can to correct that, right? Uh, then I go, am I, am I doing my, my meditation in the morning, right? Am I doing that? And if I'm finding my time and making my time to do that, then that's, then that's awesome. Usually I'm not having these problems. And if I'm also finding my time to do my regular workouts in the morning, okay, now I know I'm doing well, but when things start to go off track, it's when I start to fall out with one of those things, typically for me, that's what I find to be the biggest impactors. Uh, which is why I put those things as some of the highest priorities in my life, uh, which is why my wife and I go to bed when my kids go <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:16:05 Yeah. Um, but, uh, but those, those are some of the biggest things. Those basic easy things are usually the best, you know? Um, I always tell people it is never, it's never, oh, well, you know, just take some vitamin C and, you know, and that'll make everything better. No, let's always just check the baseline stuff, check the baseline stuff. If you are doing that, well, chances are you're not having any of the bigger problems. Um, so, uh, so that, that's really it for me, is those baseline items. Um, and that's just a, just a few of them for me. But, uh, but for most people, those are very applicable.
Speaker 1 00:16:41 Awesome. What about you? I mean, you got a few things going on professionally, uh, author, Harvard Medical School, founding partner of heart, uh, Optum, just a few things going on. You, you've got those kids, uh, in gymnastics at m i t, like all these things. So, uh, with all that going on, I, I wonder what are some of your strategies when you start to see, uh, some of those warning signs or a dipping heart rate variability?
Speaker 3 00:17:12 So, um, for me, well, sleep is definitely, uh, it, you know, with, uh, you know, with three kids, you know, various stages of, uh, you know, of, uh, life <laugh>. There's just never, uh, enough time for anything. Um, but, uh, a really important one for me is, uh, alone time. Um, I am very much an introvert, uh, believe it or not. Uh, and I need my alone time. Cause, you know, I, I know that, you know, by, by the end of a really, really busy week, or, you know, if I've had a busy week and I'm, you know, traveling for a gymnastics competition, <laugh>, uh, you know, know. So no alone time, you know, for a while. You know, if I feel like I'm, uh, about ready to bite somebody's head off, uh, or if I'm getting that headache, David's like, as if you know me, um, <laugh>, uh, usually, you know, I have to look at, um, have I been getting my alone time and have him getting sleep?
Speaker 3 00:18:08 And oftentimes those two intertwined for me. Cuz if I, if I go too late into the evening, I'm not ready to go to sleep yet, and I really need some alone time, I'm gonna stay up too late and I'm gonna go and, you know, read, uh, you know, or just, or, or meditate or do my h i v training cuz I didn't have a chance to do it during the day or, you know, one of those things. Uh, but then, uh, I end up going to bed, uh, too late and still have to be up early. Uh, so those two go hand in hand for me in there, the first, uh, the first thing that I need to address, uh, if I'm seeing my h I v going down.
Speaker 1 00:18:42 Yeah. And I, I think that it's, it's very, you know, kind of interesting to hear both of you talk because I, I, you know, not having children, I have a lot of control over my schedule, you know, now, now that ebbs and flows out-of-state trainings or this, that, or the other. So there is variation in there, but there's not really, I, I think the excuses, I, I just have come to appreciate what a sick kid does to what you thought you were going to do that day. Uh, and then you get sick. And then that's, you know, I, I, I, I've just come to have a lot of respect. So, you know, I, I love that idea of really going back to the basics. And I, I think as also somebody else who, if I don't focus on the basics, uh, I've best sort of have one person to blame, and that's the person staring back at me in the mirror.
Speaker 1 00:19:31 Um, you know, so with that, you know, one of the things that I, and this is how simple this can be, um, as well, is focus on the basics. Absolutely. You know, my other one's like a three day weekend, like, I, I find that especially is, this is why I like that as part of my wellness plan overall. It's to take regular vacations to, to make sure that I don't, oh yeah, I'm busy. I can't take a week off this six months or whatever it might be, and I'm not great at that. I'll, I'll own it. But then it's like when I see that drop, it's that, that one extra day, um, just seems to be magical for me. And I actually now have H R V data at a show. If I can get that day scheduled, scheduling actually boosts my H R V and then I have to take it.
Speaker 1 00:20:16 I tried to manipulate myself to just keep scheduling three day weekends and then canceling them. I didn't necessarily work out, uh, for the better. So, uh, yeah. But, but just looking at, okay, when I realized this and in a few things, I just wanna put together one, focusing on those basics. So when we think about a wellness plan, write those warning signs down, write those basics down, and give yourself credit every, so, uh, once in a while for doing the basics. Like, I get up, I try to do, to do this once a month and just count all the good things I do, you know, in my morning routine. Like I'm drinking the god awful shake. I always talk about how many good things are in that shake, like macal and broccoli to start with, right? If, if you got that kind of dedication, you gotta give yourself credit for you.
Speaker 1 00:21:03 I neti pot right now. I'm not gonna go into detail about that, but, you know, it's something that's so ingrained in my habits, my supplement routine. You know, I want to count, well, okay, why am I taking this? Why am I taking that just as a reminder? And then again, when you realize this, have a plan in place when you start to see that dip. Because when we start to get stressed out, I think it's so easy to just be in the stress and then that just gets worse and worse and worse. So really having that plan, uh, ahead of time, uh, to do this is, I, I think definitely important. And write this stuff down. Again, you can download the book at optimal h r v.com. Just scroll down a little bit. We're giving it away for free. Follow through with us. There's the handouts there as well.
Speaker 1 00:21:48 One interesting question that's come up for me, because, you know, my work, when I work with organizations, when I work with leaders, I've, I've got the most burned out occupations in the room. It's who I'm working with. Healthcare, social services, education, you know, criminal justice folks, all dominating those co top top categories for burnout. I would love to just hear any experience you had with like, uh, athletes or Navy Seals. I know you've worked with, but high performers that we usually don't see in the top ca You know, you don't see professional basketball players, one of the most burned out professions, but I'm assuming, and Dave, you are, you're, you know, start with you maybe on this as haven't been a professional athlete yourself, I know working with other high performers, how do you kind of see this manifest with them that might be different than a C-suite executive who's working 80 hours a week and never disconnects on the weekends? Do you see any difference between, uh, those two categories, uh, of folks?
Speaker 2 00:22:55 Um, well, well, it's, you know, it's very interesting the turn that has taken with, um, with, uh, a athletes, especially as of late. Uh, you know, and I, I can't put an exact number on the amount of years, but all of a sudden the focus has shift from work as hard as you can, work as hard as you can run yourself into the ground to no recovery. Um, and it is so about
Speaker 1 00:23:18 30 years too late for me personally, <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:23:21 Yes. Right. Um, yeah, because that, cause that was, that was the model, you know, um, you know, when, uh, when you were playing college basketball, right? Just run as hard as you can and until you puke and then get up and do
Speaker 1 00:23:34 It again. Yep. Absolutely. It was a badge of honor to bend over that trash can
Speaker 2 00:23:39 <laugh>. Yes. And, uh, and it's so cool to see that, that, you know, I even coaches are so well informed that recovery is what makes your athletes great. That recovery is what makes the difference between the team that, you know, can push it at the end of the game versus the team that, that's burnt out at the end of the game, right? Yeah. Um, so, uh, so seeing that within, uh, you know, within athletes starting to shift their mindset towards recovery and starting to become a little bit more aware of okay, I think, you know, this might be going on, that might be going on. Um, but I think athletes do an amazing job of, of being there and being present when it matters for them. <laugh>. Yeah. And then they do an amazing job of falling off the wagon <laugh> as soon as it doesn't anymore. Um, and, uh, and, and not caring at all, which can be very frustrating from, uh, from the person, you know, trying to help them or guide them.
Speaker 2 00:24:35 Uh, so, um, so, you know, that's, uh, it's really cool though to see the dedication and to see that they will literally do exactly what you say. Uh, they will not waiver at all from, you know, from doctor's orders, from coach's orders and that, and that's great cuz when you tell 'em it's time for recovery and we tell 'em to watch their numbers until they hit this, they will watch until it hits exactly that you're like, I meant like around it didn't have to be exact, you know? Right. Um, so it's, um, it's very cool to see that, uh, you know, with, uh, with the high performers. However, um, I, I as well would love to hear about, uh, you know, like the high performers like, uh, like navy seals and, uh, and, uh, you know, a special, um, you know, special troops and whatnot that, uh, that ina gets to work with on that. So, uh, so please <laugh>,
Speaker 3 00:25:27 Um, you know, I've, uh, the funny thing is, uh, I've seen some of the highest, um, H R V numbers and some of the lowest H R V numbers among those high performers. Um, and you know, I think the reasons, you know, who are the highest numbers perhaps, you know, obvious, you know, these are, you know, incredibly physiologically gifted and resilient, um, individuals who are at the top of what they do. You know, that includes, you know, maybe seals and army rangers and, uh, you know, surgeons, uh, and, you know, C-suite executives. Um, but, you know, without proper care, you know, without proper recovery, proper sleep, uh, at some point they end up in, uh, among the lowest HIV numbers, um, I've ever seen. Um, because they burn out and their nervous system burns up. Cuz you know, the high performing individuals are capable of really high performance.
Speaker 3 00:26:20 They expect really high performance from themselves. Everybody else expects really high performance from themselves, but they very often do not think, uh, about recovery or they're not allowed that time for recovery. Right. You know, think about a surgeon's schedule or, you know, think about a, a seal schedule or, you know, complete lack thereof. Um, and, you know, sometimes it's avoidable, sometimes, uh, not so much, but it's, you know, regardless, the nervous system doesn't care whether you it's possible to recover or not. You know, it only cares whether it's actually capable of doing so, whether it has the time. Um, and if there is no opportunity for recovery, that is absolutely reflected in, uh, H R V and it's reflected in the person's experience, um, which often, you know, results in kind of the more the person feels like I'm getting burnt out, I'm not performing at that same level than they put more pressure on themselves, then they dedicate even less time to recovery, then they push themselves even harder. And of course, that results in even lower h i v even lower resilience, et cetera. So we really need to, um, continue that shift, uh, towards, uh, um, the emphasis on recovery, making sure there is time for that and, um, kinda letting go of this idea that some of us are actually superhuman.
Speaker 1 00:27:41 Yeah. What are you talking about Iena? <laugh> <laugh>. So, I mean, because one of the things, I mean that I find Dave, both of you, like, I I'm really jealous in some ways of athletes being removed from that because there, there's a way to think about, like, as a college athlete, if I was playing a lot, I was probably trying to find peak performance for an hour at a time, you know, a couple times a week. Like, how do, within this two hour frame of a basketball game, how do I skid do the rest of my week to perform at the peak life? And I, I had none of this. I was under the mentality even you got up and practice the day of sometimes at 6:00 AM I mean, just stupid stuff that we didn't kind of know any better at the time that this was probably why we weren't winning too many games.
Speaker 1 00:28:35 Right. So, you know, it's, it's an interesting, I think, thought experiment about how do we help people in, uh, the, the business world, the, you know, business just being working world, I guess would probably be a better thing of, you know, is you don't, you have to be on for 40 hours plus. And I know a 40 hour work week is kind of a myth at this point, but, but how do you look at that as bringing your best self to that work when it's important? And that's, you know, I, I'm really interested, we talk about this in later chapters, like hyper efficiency sprints, um, those sort of things. I'm really fascinated with this four day work week research that that seems to be coming out of almost saying, hey, is that if you actually, you know, let people recover, you'll get as much work done in one less day, then you four days as you do in five days, you get the same amount of work done.
Speaker 1 00:29:30 Morale improves, productivity improves, you know, there's some really interesting research out there to supplement this model. But it's like, I just think preparing for a 40, 60 hour, 80 hour work week is just like, how do we bring that recovery? And I think athletes have done a good job, Dave, as you were talking about Nina as well, it's almost thing about recovery as a verb, right? Is that it's, I'm doing something, I'm getting a good night's sleep so I can perform better the next day. Right? It's not, I'm being lazy. It's why I'm gonna sleep past 4:00 AM and not get up and push myself hard unless you go to bed when Dave and I do it, you know, when the sun goes down or way before that. Uh, you know, so it's, it is that mentality of how do we bring that into the, the modern work environment, especially when we can take our work home, we can take our work on vacation, we can take our work with us on the weekends even when we might not have to.
Speaker 1 00:30:27 It's there for us as well. And I think that's one of the real challenges that we face, uh, with this is we got the data to show it's not good to be on 24 7, but how do we rethink this like athletes did. I wonder if either of you have any kind of thoughts on how do we take the lessons of these elite performers, at least the ones that we see with the good H R V scores and bring them to, you know, the average person working a 40, 50 hour work week. Uh, any thoughts on how we might take some lessons from those peak performers?
Speaker 3 00:31:02 I would, um, I would say just translate it quite directly, right? You know, you don't have to be an Olympic athlete to need recovery. Um, and you can think of it as your peak performance. Uh, you know, it doesn't, you don't, it doesn't have to be, you know, you know, the top of everything. Yeah. Uh, it can just be, you know, how can you be at your best in your life? Um, right. And we're talking about, uh, your professional life, your personal life, uh, you know, how can you be the best parent you can be? And I imagine most parents out there probably want that. Um, you know, how can you do that? You know, how can you be, uh, the best, uh, you know, spouse or partner? Uh, how can you be the best professional at whatever it is? Um, how can you just be the best person for yourself, you know, even like leaving everybody else, um, out of it. Um, so I think, uh, comparing, comparing ourselves to others always leads to trouble. Uh, there is just never, never ever, uh, a good thing. Um, but comparing ourselves to ourselves can be helpful. How can I do better, um, for myself, you know? So that relative change, uh, goes a very long way.
Speaker 1 00:32:07 Great. Dave, any thoughts on your end?
Speaker 2 00:32:10 Yeah, uh, well, well, very similar and, you know, uh, to, to echo, you know, ina that's, um, you know, you, you don't have to do something physically demanding to need recovery. Um, mental emotional exhaustion is, is honestly probably worse, uh, in a lot of ways. Uh, so, you know, that just as much needs, uh, needs that recovery or just like the physical, you perform or you perform very poorly, uh, right as a result. Um, I love that concept of the, uh, of the four day work week, but I thought Tim Ferris said it was a four hour work week.
Speaker 1 00:32:45 Yeah. I think he, he gave up on that. So No, no, I'll be, I read the book and I, that the whole, his idea, never quite figured out how to move to Costa Rica live on a life or a houseboat and work four hours a week and still make his type of money. But there, there are some nuggets in there. I I think if he would write it now, it'd probably be a little bit more realistic. But there was a reason I bought the book <laugh>, and it might, because of the title,
Speaker 2 00:33:16 Well, it, and it makes us all realize, right, that, uh, there's, there's, you know, and, and equally, right? I read that book and I, and there's, there's some great, you know, uh, you know, hacks or whatever you want to call 'em. Yeah. Um, some great strategies within, you know, a book like that that is, that is even, you know, a, a talking about, Hey, you know what, just have an automatic email response that says, I only check my emails, you know, between these times on these days. And then it takes away that stress of having to check emails cuz you already responded, right? Um, there's, there's all sorts of little strategies out there if you look, um, and, uh, and share them. And, uh, well, the internet is probably the best place ever, uh, for finding the most random things in that regard. Um, but yeah, it's li little strategies that make a big, big difference that take something off your plate. So, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:34:08 Awesome.
Speaker 3 00:34:09 And, um, let, let me go ahead get, sorry Matt, I'm gonna add one more thing to this as far as the need for recovery. You know, we're talking about, uh, stressful stuff, um, that we do that we need to recover from. I'm gonna add that we also need recovery from fun things we do. Yeah. Um, which is not to say we shouldn't have fun. We should absolutely have fun <laugh>, but the fun things also need some recovery time. You know, I'll tell you, I learned this, uh, firsthand, you know, not to, you know, not be very great results. Uh, you know, last year with my daughter, uh, at a gymnastics competition, we were in Orlando, Florida and lots of fun things for young, you know, you know, young gymnasts to do. So, uh, the day before the competition, we spent the whole day at Universal Studios and we came back and we had so much fun.
Speaker 3 00:34:54 It was such a great day. And then we got, got to the hotel and realized both our feet were killing us. And I went, Ooh, that was probably not a great idea. She's competing the next morning. Oops. I certainly hope my daughter's coach is not listening to this <laugh> <laugh>. But, um, you know, the next day results were not quite, you know, not quite to, to the expectation. Uh, so, you know, since then we've been, um, really, uh, paying attention, uh, uh, to this, this was, you know, definitely, uh, a lesson learned. Um, and the same competition is coming up soon, and we are gonna be much more judicious about how we're spending our time with Universal. Um, it, it makes, uh, uh, the fun things are important, uh, but we also gotta give ourselves recovery time.
Speaker 1 00:35:40 I think that's great. And we'll, we'll talk about in future chapters too, about how do we look at that and how do we have fun and recover, because those two things, you know, I, I've had to pay a lot of attention to what I do during those three day weekends because if I'm out late concerts, snowboarding the night, you know, then I can actually wear myself down even more. Yet, there is a benefit also to having fun and pushing myself hard on the mountains. So like, just, you know, I think H R V gives us that really nice quantitative feedback is I, I honestly, this Saturday and Sunday after the craziness of my wife had surgery, you know, I am, I, I am just up and down day of with a week at work. It just, just, it is like, I basically just sat on the couch.
Speaker 1 00:36:29 Like I, I, I had the idea I could get up, but I just, just like, I just, I almost just need to sit here. And then I woke up in the, my highest H R V score in probably three weeks because I played civilization on the couch the whole week. Uh, my, my, my, my civilization is dominating the game just in case anybody's interested. But, uh, yeah, it's, uh, it was just sort of what I needed was to just, just sit on the couch, just watch stupid documentaries and have that, that is my recovery time, and now I've got the energy I need for this week. And I wouldn't do that every weekend, and I wouldn't encourage that, you know, that sedentary thing for everybody. But like, I just, I just listened and said, okay, I, I need this right now and paid off in the, in the kind of long run.
Speaker 1 00:37:18 So I, I wanna, I wanna kind of end because I, one, we end this chapter on creating a wellness plan, and I don't wanna go dive too far into that because you need to download the book, you've listened to the chapter, get that wellness plan written down. Um, I, I think it's such an important thing is to really write it down on paper. What are you gonna do? Because when you get stressed out, again, it's not the time to plan your way outta stress when you're overwhelmed by the stress. Uh, try to find some time to really focus on that plan. But I think one of the things I kind of wanna go out on today is what, what I think is really important, because what I, the one that I think I shared this in the book is the one piece of self-care advice I got throughout nine years of college was leave work at work and home at home.
Speaker 1 00:38:09 And obviously from a mental health perspective, there's some things to think about. And I, I kind of started to get that advice before email and there was kind was going to go, go away towards the end because we could now log in to our work email and do work at home. So that advice got less and less to the detriment I think, of everybody. But, but we've got this personal life, you know, mixed in into our H R B score as well. And so, you know, I, I'd just love to get thoughts as we only get one cup. And so, you know, I just kind of wonder, you know, kind of how you look, Dave, maybe somebody comes to you struggling on both ends. How do you help people think about both the personal aspect to performance as well is that I'm a high performing C-suite, but my marriage is a wreck, I'm drinking too much. Like, how do you help people kind of think about that heart rate variability, that R M S S D score in a more holistic way than than just work? Um, because hopefully we're spending more than half our time, even though a lot of it's sleeping outside the work environment.
Speaker 2 00:39:18 Yeah. Well, uh, well, that's huge. I mean, and it's a, you know, back to what we've been saying, right? Uh, if you're, you're not finding the, your recovery time and for, you know, and for a lot of us that is having fun, spending time with loved ones, um, you know, eating healthy, exercising, those kinds of things, um, if you're not doing those things, work performance is just gonna crash as well. Uh, you know, no matter what level, uh, you know, you are, you find yourself at. So, uh, so, you know, it's, it's that simple. Uh, you know, you have to be taking care of yourself, and that doesn't mean just eating healthy. That doesn't mean just exercising, right? It's a, it's everything. If you're not covering your entire life, um, you know, looking at every single category of your life, um, eventually that's gonna catch up and it's going to create a stressor.
Speaker 2 00:40:13 Um, you know, say maybe my, my love life is great, right? I have a great relationship with my children. I do great with, uh, I do, I do great with, you know, exercise and eating, but my finances are horrible, right? Um, then that's going to eventually spiral, and that is going to eventually become a huge stressor for me, and that is gonna be something that is ultimately going to be, you know, taking me, taking me down, uh, more or less, right? Um, so we do have to look at the entire life, right? And I, and granted, you know, as somebody's doctor, I can't tell him, make sure you pay off your credit card every month. Um, but, uh, but it's, it's taking that step back and realizing that everything affects everything else. So if we aren't, you know, if we aren't paying attention to every area of our life and making sure that we're healthy in every area of our life, um, then, then we are going to be, you know, ultimately short shorting ourself in some way or another.
Speaker 2 00:41:08 Um, so, uh, so, you know, I, I think, uh, I think that's a great way to, uh, to look at it all. And there's, uh, and there's actually some great programs, uh, you know, that will, um, that look, you know, deeply into each area of your life. Um, but, um, but, you know, uh, for me, you know, I, I, uh, I, I try to do that the best I can, uh, you know, pay attention to every single area of my life to make sure that not one over overstress me. Um, and I, I try to echo that as much as I can to my patients, uh, as well. That, um, that everything is important. There is no less important part of your life. So,
Speaker 1 00:41:45 ENA, any thoughts on this?
Speaker 3 00:41:46 Yeah, I absolutely agree. Um, uh, with Dave Ness, uh, you know, there is no less important area of your life, and even if it might seem that way, it'll eventually catch up. Um, so with pretty much all my clients, one, uh, at some point we have a conversation about values, and I think that's provides a really nice framework for taking a look at every area of your life, you know, what's important to you, uh, you know, uh, what's important to you when it comes to work, when it comes, what's important to you, when it comes to your family work, what's important to you when it comes to self-care, friendships, uh, you know, spirituality, uh, community involvement, et cetera. So, you know, there, you know, there's certainly some structured questionnaire as you can use it. We'll, you know, make sure that you're looking at, uh, um, every area, uh, of your life.
Speaker 3 00:42:29 And, um, this is a really nice touchpoint, uh, because, um, it, it allows, uh, you know, you as the provider and you know, the client, uh, to, uh, uh, take a look at everything, uh, and make sure that they're where they, where they wanna be, uh, in every area of life. Um, it can also down the road, serve as important, uh, motivator for, uh, incorporating various skills. Like, you know, if I, um, if, uh, being a, uh, um, healthy, uh, parent is really important to me, or healthy involved in, you know, who's support able to be supportive, et cetera, you know, am I willing to, um, do some, uh, biofeedback training or some mindfulness training or, you know, whatever it might be that might be hard to include into your busy daily life. So values are, um, a really nice way to start down the road off. Let's review what's important and then, uh, motivating change now for,
Speaker 1 00:43:29 Uh, well, that I, I just gotta shut up because I could go on for another two hours with you on values. I, I think they're so central to really living the life that our best life. Uh, but I, I'm gonna hold off on that because I know we got limited time and I wanna go out o on take giving leaders, especially those in leadership positions. I really believe the key dilemma that, that we need to focus on when we start to bring in the idea of wellness. And if you bring in a heart rate variability into the organizational concept, this dilemma that we face as leaders, because o on one hand, personal choices are gonna have a dramatic impact on resiliency and performance, right? If you're out drinking till 2:00 AM and shutting down the bar every night, I think bars still close at 2:00 AM I haven't, I haven't shut down a bar unless they're like closing at eight o'clock.
Speaker 1 00:44:27 Um, that that's not me anymore. So, you know, if you're staying out, you're not gonna perform good next day of work. If, like Dave said, if your personal life is a mess that's gonna impact your work. So, on one hand of the dilemma, personal behaviors, which I historically I ibel in leadership, we don't touch very often. And, and there's a boundary there that we should respect. As long as you show up and do your job as to expectations, I really don't care what you do on a Wednesday evening, right? I'm, I'm, I'm looking for that performance. But on the other hand, so the personal side is, this is where we don't use the term self-care throughout the book is, I think historically what we've done is that if you're burned out, there's something wrong with you as an individual. Uh, if you're burned out, there's a failure on your part to really take your personal time to manage work distress, which I think we can all agree work distress is gonna, at least the burnout.
Speaker 1 00:45:24 Um, there can be trauma and personal life as well. But when we talk about burnout, what we're talking about is the, the, the organization fails to provide the resources necessary to help manage the distress from the work. And then that is for leaders. I think the real challenge right now is there's what we see with the job demands and resource model. Does the personal behaviors play a role? Absolutely, yes. But the major finding is organizations that thrive and get the best outcomes possible, do a good job of providing resources, which we'll pretty much talk about in every exist, uh, chapter from here on out, provide resources to offset that distress so it doesn't relieve the organization or the leadership. And in fact, I think it puts more emphasis on there than our traditional thinking. Don't blame the employee for being burned out. Um, that should not be our default stance.
Speaker 1 00:46:22 So that's a good challenge, I think, to lead us into next week's chapter where we really start to look at this in more depth. So ina Dave, thank you for this great discussion. I love these. Uh, it was like I said, months after writing these chapters, it's so fun to revisit, uh, that process with you both. So, um, again, you can find, download the book for free at, uh, optimal hv.com. Just scroll down a little bit. Uh, you can also, uh, download my book, um, uh, heart Rate Variability of the Future of Trauma Informed Care for Free as well. So we wanna be part of 2023, the Year of Resiliency and Recovery. And with that, ina, Dave, thank you so much and everybody, we will hit chapter four next week. Thank you, Matt. Awesome.
Speaker 3 00:47:06 Thank you, Matt.
