[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us out at optimalhrv.com Please enjoy the show here.
Welcome, friends, to Heart Rate Variability Podcast. I am Matt Bennett. I am here with Steve Castle today. Steve, I've been looking at your website.
I'm thrilled to explore your expertise, looking at how you apply biofeedback along with a range of other interventions. And that's what I'm really excited to explore, that integration of heart rate variability and other biofeedbacks into your neurofeedback emdr. You're doing a lot of really cool things, so welcome to the show.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:01:06] Speaker A: Just to get us off the ground, just a quick introduction of yourself and then let's dive into your work.
[00:01:14] Speaker B: Okay. So I studied with Marjorie and Herschel Tumham in the, like, 1984 during the Los Angeles Olympics.
[00:01:23] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:01:24] Speaker B: Yeah. And, you know, trained at the same time as people like Gary Schumer. Michael Linton started going the Biofeedback Society of America meetings, which later became AAPB California meetings, which in 1999. I was president of that organization.
And then I got my license as a marriage and family therapist in 1992 with a thesis on EEG biofeedback and had to give it a family systems slant to it. They almost didn't accept it because they didn't see how biofeedback neurofeedback relates to family therapy. But. Oh, yeah.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: Well, and I would love to kind of jump in right there because that's kind of looking at your website, you know, you have two.
It looks like a couple sitting there hooked up together and. Wow. Yeah. And if you're not watching us on YouTube, there's the picture I saw on the website. And what are you. What are you doing there? And just so our audience knows, we are. We are recording this on Valentine's Day, even though it'll come out weeks later. So, yes, let's talk about what I'm seeing on the screen here and how you integrate this into your couples work.
[00:02:41] Speaker B: Well, I think any marriage family therapist and any concerned family member would want mom and dad or, you know, a couple to. To connect with each other rather than repel each other.
[00:02:53] Speaker A: That's. That's Usually a good start.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: And there's all kinds of ways that we repel each other without our, without conscious awareness. But you know, we get comfortable. We, we, we, we're in a bad mood. It's not very appetizing for the other person. They have a hard time connecting with us. Anyways, so in about 2009 I, I asked a few of the manufacturers of equipment, can you give me a screen with cameras? So thought technology. And I'm not being paid by thought tech but they were able to give me a program with two screens. I'm two, two video inputs in and then I start to play with it.
Now the drawback is, and I sometimes start when I give a talk at conference by saying I feel a little bit like a fraud or an imposter because truth is I'm, I've been contracted with insurance companies my whole career that we'll deal with in the book I'm writing why Mental Health Care is Failing in America. They're horrible. We won't spend time in this, in this. But, but they don't pay. They used to pay handsomely for biofeedback in early 90s I would, a doctor I work with would just send me to the psych unit and I'd see like five or six people. And then I got my license. I was able to bill for that. But shortly after that they start to. The insurance companies started to go through and manage care and said that biofeedback doesn't have a basis for.
There's no proof that it's working, it's experimental, whatever it is. So that fell off. Now I know some of you out there in YouTube land are probably getting reimbursed and maybe it's because you're a physician or psychologist, but MFT companies like Blue Cross Hobby said that we're, we're not, we're not able, we're not competent in biofeedback. In any event, that doesn't start my gears, my creative gears from thinking. And I've always had a mixed practice or I've worked for others, you know, but last 20 years I worked for myself and when I see someone for biofeedback, neurofeedback or interpersonal biofeedback, I do take cat, you know, I don't bill insurance. I'll give them a super bill.
So they gave me the screens and I then set out to do research because I didn't really want to say, oh, this is a modality that will work until we have some data and I have on my PowerPoint I sent out, I probably had like 80, 70, 80 phone calls over like a two year period. And I would send out applications and then I'd review it and say, okay, looks like you fit the research criteria and come on in. And so I started with I think 22 people. Only two couple, 22 couples. Only two couples finished. And you know, that was the end of the research.
But meanwhile a few other people like John LeMay was, was seeing people in an office where he worked and, and getting data and I just said, screw it, I'll start seeing people now. My phone doesn't ring off the hook for people calling for biofeedback, neurofeedback, and especially interpersonal biofeedback. So occasionally when I have somebody who's cash paying, I will say, hey, I want to do this modality. So then I work with them, not in the same way that I designed the program to work, but just to call attention to. And so I want to go back to the research because I think it's really important.
And one of the things I really want to say here is for those of you who are in, in school right now, you know this, I'm happy to help you with a project and at least give you some guidance to get you off the ground.
I think this is something that needs to be researched more and needs to be published more. And I, I just, you know, I mean, I think most creative people think their, their stuff is really spot on and the best, but I think that this, I was like ahead of my time.
So I, what I did with the research was, was I created a script which was one minute of, oh, I don't remember, I don't remember the lengths of time, so don't quote me on that. It was, it was probably a minute baseline. Just sit and do what you normally do to relax now. Talk to each other, not at each other. Have a conversation about something neutral.
Now sit and relax and let's, let's see what, what your physiology shows now. Let's have you talk about something stressful, something you disagree about and you know, share, share the time, don't know and hog. And then I think we did that for three minutes and then, then, then there was another baseline in the end to see how they recovered and what we were measuring here is if I can do this. These are my friends Ray and Lisa.
Lisa and Ray.
And excuse the gender colors here. I would rewrite it now, but this would be her side, this is his side and heart rate variability right there. So they're Both according to this instrument. You know, laying on the side, the red is showing 0.1 Hz, the dominant frequency at that moment for him. I'm sorry, for her and for him are both the 0.1 hertz. Bingo. They're doing good.
There's also a pacer up here for each of them. And not all couples breathe at six breaths per minute. Some are, you know, so we have to do.
In my work, I would do what. What Dick Gilbert's taught me to do, which is to find the proper rate of breathing. And then we've got heart rate and, and a respiration rate for both of them. And then, you know, in each one, you can't see it. It's buried behind his head. But it's sweat gland activity and hand temperature. Okay, so that's. That's what we're measuring. No EEG now.
You know, I wanted to get baselines. I wanted to, you know, figure out which just baseline so that I could test them 10 weeks later after taking through a course of treatment, research, treatment. And in that, those weeks that we would work, we would go to a simple screen just looking at hand temperature. That's a lot of data for even a therapist to look at at once. So, so we. Hand temperature. I send them home with, you know, autogenic phrases. I want you to learn this. You can sit down together and learn this, right? And then then they'd come in maybe the next session and practice that. Then I might talk to them about communication and using use of I statements and, and active listening. And then I would teach them about Gottman and what Gottman says about physiology. So see all this stuff on the screen, you say the wrong word and you're. Your other is going to have a reaction if they have. If they have an emotional reaction. So that, that usually when they see what they're doing to the other person, that is an aha. Because we don't go through life, you know, thinking we might. If somebody gets, you know, angry, we see in the facial expression. But the, the subtleness of physiology is something that you magnify to. To the couple. Very cool. Anyway, so, you know, by the end of 10, 10 weeks, they would. They would have had a lot of practicing of one modality, all modalities, the lessons in communication and Gottman and then practicing talking to one another in. In neutral. Right, because we got to practice with training wheels on. Yeah. Then we take the training wheels off and, you know, tell me about, like, what happened that $50,000 that she. Allud week.
Where did that Go.
[00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:04] Speaker B: Why do you keep going like this? You know, so, yeah, so drug use, what, Whatever, you know, we talk about the real issues, but I also, as a coach, I guess I have to say please use your I statements and notice this and I'll point to the screen and I might stop them and say, do me a favor, go back to the breathing, start that sentence in a healthy way and I get them practicing, send them home, not just with the autogenics, which hopefully they've learned to warm their hands, but with communication skills and so forth. So it's, it's really marriage counseling and looking at physiology.
[00:11:45] Speaker A: I'm just curious because you're really the first person, at least we brought this up on a podcast episode of really that seeing the biometrics during a session. And I'm just curious, like for you as the clinician in the room, what was that like?
I'm sure you've probably done marriage and family therapy without that equipment hooked up previous, before that and maybe since. But like, just how does that, you know, really change the session, both for you as the professional, but also for your clients as well?
[00:12:31] Speaker B: Well, as a, as a professional, you know, there's this piece of empathy, right. We were talked by, taught by Rogers to, you know, to have empathy and genuine, was it genuine understanding, whatever, you know, just positive regard and all that positive regardless. So yeah, you have to have that. But you know, you're kind of fighting with a computer screen because like, what if somebody's lead isn't working, right? And then what's the data refresh and then you have to teach them to look at the screen. And so it's a mishmash of consciousness states to where, honestly, I, I, I don't know if it's easy to operate a computer and show empathy at the same time. I mean, it's, it's harder. So you, you have to, you have to be aware of that and maybe BS a little bit or be with them, but forget the data. You know, you have to go back and forth. But we, in any event, the data is running and they see things and maybe then they'll point it out.
[00:13:32] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:32] Speaker B: And, and by looking at one's own physiology, it's a, it's a very vulnerable experience. I mean, when you're working one on one with somebody and you're looking at their respiration and heart rate, you know, and they see you looking at their, you know, their, their, you know, very low frequency or low frequency, and they're not getting it right, people get self conscious. So There's a lot of, there's a lot of opportunity in the room to lose, to lose track, you know, so you need to, as, as the leader of the session, you need to be focused and professional and guided back and just like, okay, you know, God forbid there's like a glitch and all of a sudden like respiration goes up to 400 breaths per minute. Don't worry. That's just the computer updating. Don't worry about that.
So.
[00:14:21] Speaker A: And I'm curious. This is a not. Let me just ask a non scientific question. But, but I'm curious. Like there's a lot of things, like we know emotions are contagious and you know, there, there's. How do human beings get in synchronization with one another as well? We'll see. Some, you know, I don't. Moods and other things, you know, biometrics, in some ways, you know, sync up with each other. Like as you're doing therapy and you're helping people connect, what do you think, like, if we were to step away from the science of it all, what do you think is, what do you think you're seeing there is people getting synchronization with each other. You know, are we seeing, you know, people syncing up their, their oxytocin? Like, what do you think is the magic, since we're on Valentine's Day, the magic going on there between couples?
[00:15:24] Speaker B: Well, you're bringing up a lot of really good data and stuff that I only read about. But I can't, I don't feel comfortable enough to lecture on it. But certainly, you know, pheromones and a lot of unconscious processes happen by the, that, you know, you might gaze away. Right? I mean, if I'm talking to you and I'm kind of doing stuff in the room, your audience is going to fall off. So there's a certain amount of connectivity that happens. And I think that the things that people say, obviously, whether they're positive or negative, will, Will guide us more towards having a, a fun Valentine's evening or not. You know, and, and it's, you know, it's. I'm promoting intimacy and promoting getting rid of bad habits. Right. In how you phrase things and how you might roll your eyes in contempt. I'm making people very aware of their bad habits and, and making them aware of. In a, you know, in a marriage counseling session, you know, what do you hear your, your spouse asking for what your partner asking for? Right. You know, what is it they want and what's in the way of you giving it and, you know, what can you do to deliver it? You know, for example, you know, stereotype is, you know, someone says, well, my family, we didn't talk about my. Our feelings. My family growing up. And, you know, and the spouse feels disconnected from. From the person who they marry, right? The other spouse. And so we go, okay, well, you're going to continue that path. I mean, how long are you in that family? Wasn't like 25, 30 years ago? Like, can't, you know, dude, you're in a different era, wake up. You know, she's. This is what she needs. But. But, you know, as Gottman says, you know, there's the four horsemen, the apocalypse, right? And so to your readers out there who haven't read that or your viewers, I should say it's blame or criticism is the first one.
Defensiveness, contempt, and stonewalling. Those are all behaviors which, if you and I were doing those behaviors right now, the audience would probably not be able to see increase, you know, change over here in a heartbeat. But with the instruments, you can see them. So we want to teach them that so. So they can get back on track and find each other again.
I love that.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: I'm curious, you know, and with my assumption in your master's program, I'm assuming you probably, you know, at least I know in the late 90s, we weren't getting a ton of brain neuroscience. We weren't. I don't think I learned the term parasympathetic nervous system until, you know, the ACE study came out and Porges came out. Like, I was. I was early on. I. For a lot of people. But I know, you know, folks like yourself had been looking at the nervous system a decade or so before I became aware of it. I kind of. I would love to hear, like, what. What got you interested in biofeedback. And, you know, I know when I started to learn about the brain and the. The autonomic nervous system, it really changed how I looked at my work as a therapist and humanity in general. And I'm. I'm curious, kind of your journey both. Both to the biofeedback and how it made you maybe reevaluate or look at your work differently.
[00:19:01] Speaker B: Well, okay, so I'll be a little autobiographical, but. Autobiographical, which I think at my age, I'm allowed to do that a little bit.
[00:19:08] Speaker A: Yeah, you ask. Please do.
[00:19:11] Speaker B: I was in my editing room at California Institute of the Arts. I was a film student, and my older sister, Marlene Castle, or Marlene Joseph, you may know her, she was studying Biofeedback in Sonoma State. Okay. With a bunch of people, Steve Wall and you know, Kitty and, and others.
And I remember her coming down and I was editing my film and I was kind of worried like when I graduate I might be able to get a job. She goes, oh my. I, you know, I can get you, I mean, you can get jobs. The biofeedback market is growing. It is really, it's, it's there. And in fact, within a year or two, Time or Newsweek had one of those articles on the 10 careers to look at in the future. Right? Data processing, you know, nurse practitioner, biofeedback therapist.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Oh, fascinating.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: I kid you not. And also in my program when I, when I did study. But if you back a year or two later, in 84, actually I, we had a cheat sheet. These companies paid 90, 100 for biofeedback. You know, Prudential, all these companies are not in business any Prudential and Trans American Life Blue, you know, Blue Cross is still in business. But anyways, they were paying for biofeedback. They, they knew that it worked. And also the expertise was, it was in the clinician's hands, not in a team of managers. So that quickly changed. We had a coup at that time in, in the industry and, and it became about the insurance company profit than the patient. So we can go into that another time. But the, so I studied and you know, so you asked, but. So my sister Marlene introduced me to biofeedback. I thought it was an awesome concept. And when I couldn't find regular work in Hollywood, I gotta change careers and become a therapist and do biofeedback.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Very, very cool. And then like as you. So you integrate that in and just. I'm curious, like as part of that training process, you know, did your understanding of the work yourself humanity. Like, I just kind of curious. You seem like a deep thinker and I'm sort of wondering, you know, I'm not going to say it was a spiritual experience. I won't go unless you want to go there. But I'm curious how, how did it change you and your view of human beings?
[00:21:46] Speaker B: I think that that learning that you can regulate, self regulate, you know, like, oh, I mean like on that level was amazing. And then you observe other people and then an article or was published on doing biofeebac with police officers to see what that would do. And then I started thinking, you know, isn't this a way to, to make for change when, when people are not aware of what they're doing or what they're voting for. Yeah, they, you know, bad can, it can lead to, to bad stuff. And so early on like when I got certified, probably before I was even license when I was working for this psychiatrist acting as an independent agent but you know, still under his license, I started contacting the schools in my area and I want to do biofeedback in schools and I published on you know, biofeedback in K through 12. I still think it's an amazing place to put this stuff and I, you know, so I published a paper on that 10 years ago. I don't know when it was and so I see, you know we do have a place and it's not just in a clinical office.
And so I don't think my spiritual views were changed by biofeedback but just the fact that we, we, we can come to the table and have some ability to self regulate not just our words but how we think about things.
[00:23:12] Speaker A: Awesome. I'm also curious you know with having seen the field evolve substantially and I know we've got our forefathers, some of which are still walking the earth. We mentioned our friend Gewurt's friend of the show.
You know, I'm curious, you know, as you've seen technology evolve and our understanding now, now it's hard to talk about psychology without throwing a little neuroscience in there to help at least supplement if not guide our understanding. I just think as a practitioner for all these years, how have you seen the advances in technology sort of impact the field? You know, you got yahoos like myself, you know, finding it, you know, with polyvagal theory and well, we can measure the stress response and you know, for me whenever you can measure something it's a game changer especially you know, as somebody who was trained on the libido which I still don't know if we've ever found that a brain scan. I don't think we have. But just curious how you as your career has evolved with the technology kind of. How have you seen a change and evolve over time?
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Well, I think that biofeedback equipment has gotten more complicated and I think it's been a turn because of the complexities. It turns off a lot of people who, who come to the field with empathic abilities.
[00:24:38] Speaker A: Yeah, interesting.
[00:24:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And I think again what I was saying before, this sort of duality between going, you know, using this part of the brain or that, that part, you know, so, so and I know that as I over the years when I try to educate non biofeedback mental Health professionals, sometimes they really don't understand what we do. I mean you can show them and tell them and they don't see really how it fits in or they turn off immediately.
I rarely get referrals from my colleagues. No matter how much networking in my community I do. Yeah. On Facebook or something, you know, someone says I have a kid with add. Well I can, you know, do. I can map them and we can find out exactly where there's slow or fast activity. You know, that it's sort of like, you know, airy fairy. So the technology, I think one of the drawbacks of the technologies, it's too technology oriented. I think the screens, the setup screens seem to be simple. I think that certain instruments come out, I won't mention them by name that you just put them on your head or on your finger and press go. And they go, oh my God. And so whether you're, you're, you know, but, but there's no depth understanding what, what that is doing or how to, how to help know Jack the nervous system to change the, the, the display you're seeing, you know, you know, so, so I think there has to be better move for that. But yes, it is fascinating and we need to learn more and we need, you know, like you said, polyvagal therapy theory, you know, how to make that work so we're not just in a high tower somewhere not being able to communicate with our other colleagues. This stuff needs to go broadband link in schools, right?
[00:26:32] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:26:33] Speaker B: Right. Or a simple program for couples, you know, to work with. So again, not a plug for thought tech, but they did take that. Those screens or different screens and to use with their TPS instrument. This little device that fits on the finger.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:50] Speaker B: Heart rate, heart variability, hand temperature, sweat gland activity. Brilliant. And they have screenshots that are available to do couples therapy with. It's not that hard.
[00:27:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: I mean you could do it on your phone probably. I don't they have set for the phone, but it's, it's not that hard. But with it, you need to have the knowledge base for technique. Right.
[00:27:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:13] Speaker B: So I don't know if that really answers your question.
[00:27:15] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I mean, because it's fascinating. Just like you know, the science is evolved, but there was really amazing work being done, you know, 20 plus years. I mean, you know, now equipment may have gotten less expensive and over time, but at the same time, I mean it's just, it's so cool to have that history behind you. Well, really groundbreaking technology for the time too.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: So Let me, let me share this. In the mid-80s, there was a gentleman named Jack Sanweis who had a biofeedback training institute within ucla. Like, I think it was either through the extension school, but it was a program that would set you up for taking the exam. And I didn't take his course. I studied with the Tumims and I got certified. And I didn't really do much with, well, Gary Schumer and I, in maybe 1988, we did a little research paper on EEG biofeedback with an elderly population versus video games control group. And the. The then editor of the APB of. Of this.
[00:28:25] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Rejected our paper. When we look back, it was a good paper, actually.
[00:28:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:28:32] Speaker B: But it was like, you know, we were. We were maybe by the. By the, you know, back then. This is before ISNR got split off, right? I mean, before there was, I don't know, the revolution that happened. I don't want to go through the steps. There was a meeting in Catalina, Barry Sturman's home, or a bunch of people really pissed off. The AAPB wasn't really meeting their needs because with. With EEG biofeedback. And then the Academy of Certified Neurotherapists got started and got the working name of the Free to isnr. And so then I became certified in that, you know, and. But initially we were just sticking electrodes on the back of the head. Like, going occipital means you do this, you do in the front, it means this. There was no multiprocessor.
I was amazed at some of the stuff that Sturman and Sanweiss were doing out of Hollywood Presbyterian Hospital with seizure disorders. I remember visiting that place and seeing the instrument that. The very, very simple instrument that Sid Ross, who worked with Barry at the va, had made, where there was like, you know, a red light if you're not on target with beta, you know, and beta, in other words, you had to suppress one, increase the other. And then when you were on target, a green light came on. Oops, yellow light, green light. And just that alone was the guiding mechanism. And. And so I was really impressed with that.
And then we got microprocessors, and the whole thing split open.
You could slice it and dice it in all kinds of yummy ways.
[00:30:13] Speaker A: Well, and I love to kind of wrap up, especially with my first episode, because I think there's a million different directions that we could go with, hopefully future conversations. But I would love to see, as somebody who's watched the field evolve over the years, where do you see as Technology seems to be on the brink of an AI revolution and quantum computing is a word that seems to maybe be a reality instead of a pipe dream. Where do you kind of, as you look five, ten years into the future, do you see anything on the horizon that you kind of see is the next big steps? You've talked about the multi processor being a game changer. If you see kind of anything else about where we're going and what we should be watching for.
[00:31:09] Speaker B: I don't know, I mean I'd love to see like a meta study and like you know, has, you know, has the, you know, the I watch and all these little gadgets that people buy. Has it really done anything? You know, people do read things. You know, I got my, my aura ring on. I don't know that's really helped me. It's this creates, creates a sense of curiosity. Another thing to do during the day. Am I better off without it? I don't, but I, I don't know where it's going clinically. I have ideas. I mean I don't, you know, and that is I, I, during COVID during the lockdown, I became very interested in, in virtual reality.
[00:31:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:46] Speaker B: And I tried to link twice. I link thought tech up with, with companies that we had software. There are some platforms out there for therapists that work with phobias and relaxation and stuff like that. And one company I thought for sure was a go and it died and I know and they went with another manufacturer. But I think that the, those software companies don't really understand why getting a good, competent feed into the goggles is more important than just having a tone going is, is less adequate. I mean, I suppose it could work, but I just want to see goggles with my heart rate, heart rate variability.
[00:32:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:28] Speaker B: Just like if I was flying an airplane. I'm looking at the what, what's coming, you know, what's in front of me and I want to know what my control panel is doing and if I'm talking to in the goggles as an audience or bees or I'm looking down going holy moly. That's pretty far down.
[00:32:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:44] Speaker B: For heights or airplanes. I want to know like how I can jack my nervous system, you know, my physiology, so that I can, I can have a more pleasant experience and overcome this phobia. So that's, that's what I really, I'm looking forward to. But I don't know what's going to happen down the line. I mean because there's always the possibility that it could be Used for the wrong reason.
[00:33:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah, I will be. I think virtual reality is fascinating because it's about once a week. So with, with our heart rate variability app, the people are like, you've, you've got to talk to this VR company. You need to partner with this VR company. And, and more often than not, by the time the meeting happens, they may not be around anymore. It's, it's, it's like this puzzle that seems to keep tripping on itself. I, I watched a whole documentary on one that a non clinician developed and it was kind of scary what was going on there. But like, I think everyone especially like, I know and you do work with EMDR is, you know, we found this power of eye movement and a whole bunch of other stuff, not just eye movement with emdr, but like, like all this stuff is a. Lives in this potential of VR clinical interventions and bringing in biofeedback, you know, EKGs, all these other really cool things. It all seems like it's going to work at some point. But I, I don't know if anybody's kind of had that.
[00:34:15] Speaker B: I don't know. I, I mean, I caution on just, just delivering it to the public without really a sense of what, you know, like. Mattel had delivered a toy some years ago. I don't know if you know that it was a little, like a little boxing ring about yay big, you know, a square with little ropes around it and, and there was a jet stream of air and so there's a ping pong ball floating and you put this headband on and, and you relax and the ball will go up. But like, what if, what does that mean? What if somebody is producing too much theta or delta in their frontal lobe? Right. So I know that Cindy Kirsten and I was very active by SNR and went to bat to sent a warning letter to Mattel. I don't know if they weren't. They sent a letter to Mattel just asking to stop selling that. But I know that this stuff gets out and clinicians who don't know how to use things do it and they say the wrong things. It's. Come on. You know, when I give a talk to therapists and I, and I go like, I want to see. I'll take a deep, take, you know, five deep breaths. I see them going, yeah, I did.
[00:35:23] Speaker A: I know.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: So it's like, it's like the, you know the, the jargon. Just take a deep cleansing breath, release.
[00:35:31] Speaker A: All that sympathetic energy into your body.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: But they don't. Yeah, I Know I'm right. Exactly. They don't know like, really how to do it. So whenever I, I'm with, let's say, mfts, I speak at a conference or a local group. I push, you got to teach breathing the right way. So getting these tools into the hands of people who know how to use them is really, really important. And we really need to be at all the conferences. I mean, apa, California Association, Emergent Family Therapists, you know, we really need to be in those places to get interest going and get people talking about it. Because you're right, some of the old school stuff, I mean, it's valid and it's important, it's foundational work.
But, you know, if you're going to introduce something tech, you really need to have a primer.
[00:36:17] Speaker A: Yeah. And figuring out how to write for me, like how to write the workshop proposals too, has been. I, I, you know, I do a lot of speaking at conferences and I, I have a really good success rate with, you know, workshop acceptance, except for when I want to talk about heart rate variability or HRV biofeedback. And then it drops probably to a third.
Sometimes I'll slip in on reputation, but it, you know, it's just when I try to go, you know, in more of the, you know, social work arena or mental health arena, substance use arena, my, my success rate plummets. So if you've got, if maybe you can share offline any, you know, hits that you might have for me, because it's, it's weird. I can get a motivational interview in one Accepted, no problem. You know, leadership, no problem. But, you know, throw in biofeedback and all of a sudden, you know, my, my rate just drops off a cliff. So, but doesn't prevent me from keep applying.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: So maybe I can end with this. Not the most positive.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:37:25] Speaker B: When I was venturing out, you know, as, as, as a clinician, before I was licensed as an American family therapist, I had a little contract with a HMO medical group a few miles from my home. And, and the guy, the head doctor, actually hired me to see a case. And so I would wheel in my Apple Iie computer and my biocomp instrument of Herschel Twomans and set up for one patient. And I think I was paid 30 or $40, you know, to see the patient, and her symptoms disappeared. And, and then I asked, can I show up at a meeting of the doctors so I can show. So this was in the days where people didn't really have computers, but I had one. Yeah, you Know, and I brought my color monitor in which.
And I had them, you know, I showed. So the doctors are about a dozen doctors sitting around the table eating pizza. No salad or anything, just pizza. And one of the doctors picks up the thermistor and sticks it under his arm. He goes, yeah, I can make that thing warm.
I can make that thing go up, and so on. And then they were chuckling, you know.
And I brought that back to my teacher, Marjorie Tooman, and I told her about the experience. She goes, welcome to the medical field.
I mean physicians who get it is at our conferences. I've not been able to turn any. I've made friends with physicians in my community. Yeah, some of them have referred to me, but they don't know really what it is. They like, they really just don't know. And I've invited people to come over. I've had, you know, open houses.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Once a physician showed up and you know, but I think he was mostly looking for referrals.
[00:39:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:18] Speaker B: Which is fine. I mean, I'm happy to refer but. But nobody has ever taken great interest in, in the work that I do other than a conference or if I'm out and you know, someone says, hey, tell me about what you're doing, you know, or, or patience, you know, when I'm telling. That's fascinating. But my. Does it. My insurance cover it.
[00:39:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:40] Speaker B: So I think we need to learn better how to, how to represent ourselves and how to talk. Talk. I'm sure some of your listeners don't have that same issue. I don't know. Something's written on my face that doctors and other people have had success. I've had colleagues I wanted to at the same time in the field with who've retired and sold their practices. I haven't had that kind of luck. But I remain optimistic for our field. I think we do amazing stuff and what the future brings.
I look forward to it.
[00:40:09] Speaker A: Well, somebody who's relatively new to this arena, I just thank you for all the work that you've done because I mean you don't have to study, go to a conf AP or isnr and realize, you know, you get to meet the like folks like yourself who, you know, have, have done the hard work getting. At least people might know what biofeedback is and neurofeedback is. And so I mean, it's just such a privilege to talk to folks like yourself who, you know, I complain about my inability to get workshops, you know, a 2/3 failure rate. But if folks like you weren't around out there for four decades doing this great work, you know, that that would be a zero percent. So I, I appreciate you. I appreciate you.
For us, this is, this is a.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: Great, a great avenue for people to learn and learn history and so forth. And you know, if you ever have a panel and you want to introduce some, some, some old folks in there, the day and the parties and, and the gossip. No, we won't go there.
[00:41:15] Speaker A: Well, Steve, I appreciate you joining us. I, like I said, I think there's about 30 rabbit holes we could have gone down, all which have, could have been their own episode. So I hope at some point we can have you back. But thank you for your work. We'll put, because you do do telemedicine or tele appointments, right. So we'll put Steve's website and information in the show notes so you can, you can reach out to him and learn more about his work. Steve, it was so great to meet you. Privilege. And yeah, you're. The door's always open to come back for another episode, my friend.
[00:41:51] Speaker B: See some of you at BFE or aapb.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Absolutely. As always, you can find show notes and information videos. You guys see Steve's graphic. It's also on his website which we'll link in the show notes as
[email protected] Steve, thank you so much. And as always, we'll, we'll see everybody next week.
[00:42:12] Speaker B: Take care.
