[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal hrv. Check us out at optimalhrv. Com. Please enjoy the show.
Welcome, friends, to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. I'm excited to be here with my guests for several reasons today. One is next week I get to jump on a plane to be a sponsor and a participant at the HRV Institute Conference. And I have somebody who's more involved in that than me here to be a guest today and also an HRV expert as well. This that I know through some of our shared conversations and support around the research she is doing. So, Dr. Amelia Saul, welcome to the podcast.
I'm so excited to have you. I'm so excited to see you in person at the conference coming up here. And I would love. Maybe let's just start out with just a general introduction of yourself before we talk a little bit about the institute.
[00:01:26] Speaker B: Sure. Yes. Thank you for having me. So I am a assistant teaching professor here at Florida International University.
So I've been teaching here for three years now and also doing research, which is kind of part of my connection to you, Matt. And I'm in recreational therapy and rehabilitation. So that's my program and kind of focus. I am a recreational therapist as well as biofeedback Certified, have my PhD from East Carolina University. So that is actually kind of where my research backing with biofeedback started. When I was an undergrad, I worked with Carmen Rusinello there at ecu and he was kind of who kind of brought me along to teach me about how heart rate variability and other types of biofeedback can be integrated into the interventions that I was already doing with my clients and kind of adding that breadth of information of quality data that we could use to see whether or not these interventions that we were using were actually effective for our clients. And so that's kind of where I started. And then I've continued that now as a assistant teaching professor, being able to add that into my classrooms as well as into my research that I've been doing.
[00:02:48] Speaker A: I love it. I have. I have so much I'm excited to explore with you around that. But, but let me delay that gratification for a second because I want our audience to be aware of what, what is happening next week. And I know we're given a short turnaround time here, but there are virtual registration and it's still open. I just checked. I, I, I got the kind of, I get from time to time people reaching out for sponsorships. And I've heard of the HRV Institute. I don't know if I could have given a good description of it. And then I looked at your program for the conference and yeah, I'm proud that Optimal HRV is going to be a sponsor. But you won't see me at the booth during the talks because I am going to be there.
But I'm excited. So I would love to hear just a little bit more about the HRV Institute and then we'll, we'll dive into a little bit about, about the conference as well.
[00:03:50] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. So kind of going back to Carmen Russinello. So when he retired from East Carolina University, it was at the same time that I was graduating with my PhD and he wanted to continue to do something and he wasn't really sure what that looked like, but he knew that he wanted to have some of his core people to kind of come along with him. And I happen to be one of those people which was really honoring and amazing to be able to continue to work with him. And he wanted to establish a organization that's a nonprofit that provides education and resources to people who may or may not know about heart rate variability and how it can be used, Understanding there's so many things that come along with heart rate variability and so giving it that platform to be able to really grow and to learn and to be able to have those added benefits of a specific organization dedicated to one of the many different modalities related to biofeedback. And so that's where it started. And I came on as the secretary for the organization and have helped to grow it to where we are now. And we're going to continue to grow. We're still a relatively new organization that has still trying to get it footing, still learning and growing as we go. But we are really focused on kind of that educational aspect of how can we provide information and services to people who are interested in heart rate variability, who may want to know more about the field or who already does know about the field, but being able to be that person to give them those connections that they need with other people in the field. And so we've been able to do that with a really amazing team of other heart rate variability nerds like you were talking about earlier, who are all very well established in the field and have a lot of backing. So we have people on our boards, we have Carmen, he's our president. And then Christina Davis is our vice president and she is over was at Sacramento State. And so she is helping us with kind of where the trajectory of the Heart rate Variability Institute is going to go in the future and have some really great ideas. And then we have Brenda Bart Kanar and she is from the military background. And so that really adds like a cool aspect to our group as well, being able to think about how can we use this to be able to work closely with military and with physicians, she's also a physician, things like that. So that's been really awesome. And then we have Brenda Bolen, who is our member at large. She is helping us from the nursing background. She's also at East Carolina University and kind of has really great ideas. Just really kind of a go getter to get things done, which we always need on an amazing board. And then we have Jack Ginsburg, who everybody I hope has heard of before. He is kind of a pioneer in the field of heart rate variability biofeedback and he's really kind of helped us to remember like where we're coming from and to be able to again continue to grow. And then last but not least, we have Yuri Gidron. So he is in Israel doing incredible research out there on working with the military, working with people with PTSD and all of the things that he's been able to accomplish, especially over the last few years. And so it's been really interesting to have such a unique group of people. None of us really come from the same background but are able to work together for the common good of education with heart rate variability.
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Love it. And, and past friends of the show that you mentioned and hopefully a few future ones that we haven't definitely yet as you move forward. So you've got this great group of people.
You know, as somebody who's thought about and maybe put on a smaller conference in, in the past and swore never to do it again.
How did this group say, hey, we're going to take on this task of trying to put together a conference? Because obviously just again, looking at the program, congratulations. I don't know how little or much you had to do with securing, you know, the top names in the field, but I'm curious, what's it been like to now organize this event?
[00:08:23] Speaker B: Yeah, so this is actually our second conference. So we had a conference last year in October that was in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. And that one was really Successful. We had a great turnout. We focused mostly on just in person attendees because that was our very first conference ever. And then about, I think it's two weeks later, the group over at Virginia Commonwealth University, vcu, hosted a conference as well. And theirs was virtual and it had a lot of amazing speakers as well. And so when they were doing that conference, they mentioned how maybe one day they would do an in person conference. And that kind of perked my ears. And I was like, oh, this would be a great partnership to be able to combine the amazing work that VCU is doing with the amazing work that we're doing and to be able to have a location in a pretty well established area of, you know, Richmond, Virginia, where there's a lot of people that can get to that area to be able to host a conference there. So I reached out Tom Kolemsky and Jim Burch and all of them to see is this something that they're interested in. And again, they jumped right on it. And we're like, yes, this sounds amazing. And so it was really good because we have this partnership between us and a really well known university with a really strong heart rate variability research background and great labs and all of those things that they're doing. And so it is able to kind of grow to where we are now thanks to having them on board. And then also Jack Ginsburg. Ginsburg has been a really great help in getting us the amazing presenters that we have. He has such a great background with the people in the field as well as Carmen Russinello, reaching out to different people and just kind of asking them, explaining kind of where we are, that we're still a very new organization, but that we really think that this is important to have all of these amazing people coming together. So it really worked out. And Tom's group over at VCU also hosts like weekly sessions where they have amazing speakers coming in. So we were able to kind of tap into that group as well to see if any of them were interested, which is part of where we were able to get some of these incredible speakers as well. So it was just a lot of collaboration, a lot of people with big names kind of helping us out to get to where we are now. And I'm really excited to see what the conference brings next week. And similar, similar to you. Even though I am one of the organizers for the event, you will see me in every session because I don't want to miss a minute.
[00:10:56] Speaker A: There's no way we're missing these speakers. So if you want to talk to Me at the booth, do it between sessions because I am definitely learning. I'm so excited. And I am on the podcast or the website right now, heart rate institute.org very clearly. There's the conference link there. Like I said, there's virtual registrations. Hey, if you want to come to Richmond, I think you can still do.
[00:11:23] Speaker B: That definitely as well.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: But I know for a lot of our folks it'd be a last minute sort of thing, but you know, learn virtually with us. I'm so excited to be a part of it. So yeah, yeah, when I saw that email from you, I'm like, I told my team, I'm going to this if anybody wants to join me. So perfect, yeah, I'm coming. So thank you for that. And like I said, I can't wait for next week as well. So I would like to dive in a little bit to your journey to heart rate variability to now a leader in the field, helping to put this great conference together for nerds like me. And I know a lot of our listeners out there around this topic. So I think you're the first recreational therapist on the show. And if I miss somebody 200 episodes, I apologize, but. But I believe that's true. We've had occupational therapists on, so. So I'm really excited to. Let's define what a recreational therapist is. And I would love to hear about how heart rate variability came kind of into your consciousness as you were in college becoming a recreational therapist.
[00:12:42] Speaker B: Yeah. So recreational therapy is a form of therapy where we use recreation based activities, as the name suggests, as a way to be able to improve different outcomes. So it could be from a cognitive perspective, physically, emotionally, psychologically. We're working on multiple different areas through recreation based activities. So it could be through a game, it could be through a sport. Sport. We do a lot of work with adaptive sports and with veterans. And the really cool thing about recreational therapy is we work in many different areas. So with veterans, with older adults, with children, with individuals in behavioral health. So kind of across the board, physical rehab, all of those areas, but doing it in a fun way. So we add in that kind of fun aspect of yes, you're working on these different skills, you're working on improving your mobility, but we're going to do so by you playing a game rather than just asking you to do the same intervention multiple times to kind of get the same result. So we do it in a more fun way. And so that's what kind of drew me into recreational therapy is I was like, wow, this seems like something that when I do it, I'm going to really enjoy what I'm doing and my clients are also going to enjoy it, which is a huge thing. It's not feeling like you're forcing them to do things that really hurt or that they're in pain because it has that fun aspect and it's hard to like your brain can't really work in that way to think about multiple things at once. So you can kind of add that that enjoyment aspect that they might be missing from the rest of their day or that they haven't really thought about things like their leisure interests or fun activities that they want to do because of all of the other things that they've been dealing with. So this kind of gives them a break from that reality. So that's what drew me to recreational therapy. And then one of my professors was Carmen Rusinello, who is a recreational therapist as well. And so I worked with him in my undergrad years and then went on to my master's and was just kind of doing my thing, not really thinking about biofeedback a whole lot. And I had to do a thesis for my master's which was looking at college students anxiety levels by doing a two week meditation and seeing if we saw any improvement from, you know, pre deposed with a control group, you know, just kind of like a standard study. But we only used self report measures for that study. And what we found is that we weren't really able to see any significant improvements, even though the individuals would tell me like verbally that like, oh, this was great, we had a great time, but there wasn't a lot of that, like breadth of the data to really show like what we were seeing or how often they were using it, those sorts of things. So when I went on to my peeps, see that's when I reconnected with Dr. Russinello and was able to look into, okay, how can I add that aspect back in? Because I think that's what we're missing and I think that that could really help the field of recreational therapy in general too is just to we have all these fun interventions, we have all these amazing things that we're doing and we can hear that our clients are enjoying it. But what people mostly respond to is the data. They want to know the numbers and to see how are they actually doing better, how is this actually making those improvements in their lives. And one of those ways is heart rate variability, which is where my focus has mostly been in heart rate variability, biofeedback and really incorporating that into my research to show, hey, this is what we're seeing and this is how we know that this intervention is effective for this population.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: So I'm curious because one of the early teachers of, again my master's degree is in counseling psychology.
I got the gray hair. So we weren't talking a lot about nervous systems and polyvagal theory. I mean we acknowledged you had a brain, but left it at that. Back when I was the last, I think people person to graduate without understanding the brain in a way that we do now. I'm curious with, because one of my big teachers of this initially was like occupational therapists because you know, with self regulation, self soothing, like I, you know, I joked in my work in special education that I was, I was basically an occupational therapist assistant because until they figured it out and the regulatory part of this, I was really worthless. You know, then maybe I could come in and you know, do some of my training with that. But I was just blown away by them. So I'm curious from a recreational therapy perspective, you know, within your training of that and in the field now, where, where does nervous system regulation, you know, come in? You know, kind of was it talked a lot about is, you know, introducing things like heart rate variability into it, sort of an innovative approach, or was that kind of part of your, your training?
[00:17:46] Speaker B: So that was more part of my training they mentioned a little bit in some of my classes because my department was our biofeedback people at the university. And so it was hard not to think about it and not to talk about it within my department specifically. And we did have classes like on stress management and different things to kind of start to help people understand that mind body connection and kind of how things work together.
But it was more of my training that kind of really brought that to the forefront. And I've continued to share with recreational therapists going to multiple different conferences like look how amazing this can be and how we can add this in and people are interested. So just kind of continuing to share it as much as I can until people listen and can start to incorporate it into their practice as well. Because I think once they see it and they understand what it really is and what it looks like, I think that's what really helps the most is to not just hear about it, but to see, see it in action to, you know, if you can hook them up and see how they respond, that helps the most. I was able to do that with my sister. She is an engineer and I do a lot with stress management and she's Like, I don't need any of that, even though she's very stressed person. And so I hooked her up to some heart rate variability monitor just to kind of see how she responded through just doing some paced breathing, nothing too crazy, and showing her how her body responded. And she was like, oh, that did help, didn't it? And I was like, yes, it does.
I'm not just saying these things because I think that they, you know, sound good. They actually do help. And so I think if we can get more people to understand that and to see it, I think it's really about that presence that we have in showing people and having them understand, like, what this really looks like and what this means and what the data means. I think that's the most helpful thing that we can do. And I think that, you know, as a society, we're starting to move there with more wearable devices and things like that. But I still don't know if a whole lot of people know what this HRV measure that they have on their phone actually is. They just know that they have. That their number went up and that that's a good thing, you know. So some of them, some of them.
[00:19:58] Speaker A: Because I still run. Exactly what is this number on my Apple watch? Is lower, Higher. Is it heart rate? Yeah, it's. It's still.
[00:20:06] Speaker B: It's.
[00:20:07] Speaker A: It's still. I think for you and I who swim in these waters all the time, it's like, oh, the whole world knows about this now. And not necessarily. We still got a lot of introducing to do still.
[00:20:19] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely.
[00:20:21] Speaker A: So I'm curious, your journey leads you to Florida International University.
So I'm curious, you know, you got this in your training, bringing this in, you know, sounds like I can say this with a lot of confidence. You are in an innovative program, working with innovative people right from the get go. How is your career kind of evolved utilizing these different expertise that you've accomplished over the years?
[00:20:52] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. Because moving to Florida International University, it's a great university. We're in R01. All those fun things.
But doing a search to see who is doing biofeedback and neurofeedback here. At first, when I first came, there was no one. It was just me. And I was like, oh, no, what am I gonna do? Because like you said, I came from this university. We had a really strong backing in biofeedback and I was kind of ready for. I just assumed that was everywhere. So to kind of have this change of moving somewhere where I was kind of one of the Few was very interesting. Thankfully, I was able to kind of get out there and to meet with my dean and to say, look, I, this is what I'm doing, this is what I want to be doing for my research. Is there anyone at the university that's doing anything like this? And thankfully I had a few colleagues in another department that had just started using biofeedback and neurofeedback with sports. And so that's where I was like, oh, perfect, I'll do anything. I just want to get in.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: And so I was able to meet with them and they've been really helpful from the kinesiology and sports psychology aspect to help me and growing. And they have a lot of experience with grant writing, with research.
And so that's been amazing to kind of have that group and to really have people to help support me here at the university. But it's also been interesting because I am now becoming somebody that people at the university are like, kind of looking to of like, hey, I'm going to be starting this research and I would like to add in a heart rate variability component. Can you help me to learn what I need to do to be able to add that in? So a lot different than when I was at the previous university. And again, there was a lot of backing. Multiple people around the university knew what biofeedback was because of how strong of that presence they had. And so it's been interesting to be in a different university with different kind of avenues and opportunities. But it's been really great at the same time because now I get to kind of help steer the next, you know, amazing group of people that are going to be using this technology and using my expertise to help them as well. So it's been really cool.
[00:23:03] Speaker A: Yeah. Now I have a few friends. When I tell them about your work, it's like, oh, how do I get to Florida International University?
I won't mention the names of people because their universities might not like to hear that they're. Because one of the interesting things that I see in the university structure is that if you do have that supportive dean, it opens up so many doors and it almost is contagious. Oh, once you kind of maybe do a little education and introduction to your colleagues. Wait a minute. We can measure the stress response. Wait a minute. This measures cognitive functioning, emotional regulation, physical athletic recovery.
And then you say, well, wait, there's also the biofeedback side of it. And it becomes a real contagious thing if that door is kind of open to you. Because I'VE seen it also unfortunately kind of shut down early on as well. And which I love about the field is we get to be some of those ambassadors and open those doors to the next generation of folks. But it's so cool that that openness is, is there to, to experience. So.
[00:24:18] Speaker B: Definitely. And it was awesome too because I came in, I didn't have a startup or anything, so I didn't have the opportunity to just to buy equipment right away. I came in with nothing. And so they kind of opened their lab and were like, anything you need, whatever you want to do, you know, you have access to it. Which is also really good to see that. You know, I hope that continues with other universities. Kind of like, let's see this field grow and not closing those doors on people that are interested in kind of doing that research. So that was really amazing.
[00:24:49] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I have a lot of ambition around this. It's going to grow. Do you want to be the early adapters or do you kind of just want to catch up with. With everybody eventually as a. We're not going anywhere. So yeah, it's just when you want to come on board with this, it is my sort of way to look into just the excitement. But like things like the conference does another good job. The, the APB folks, you know, your work, the work that we're trying to do just to. Through the podcast to get the word out. So if you want to listen to 200 episodes of people nerding out about HRV, hey, there's, there's a landing spot for you. You know, welcome, welcome home, so to speak. So I'm curious because I know you, you're. We can't talk about all the research going on, which as I was joking with you before the show, just means you got to come back on for another podcast once, once that that is able to be published and we can talk officially about it.
I love the secrecy. It's, you know, a lot of drama in our work per se. You know, that the secrecy that I can't talk about this yet, I kind of love, but I would love to as somebody who's, you know, really, you know, on the cutting edge and recreational therapy, doing this research, obviously with your work with the Heart Rate Variability Institute, pushing the research out there in new powerful ways. I'm curious as you look, maybe in your field, but in general as well, where do you feel like we're going to be five or ten years from now? We've come so far. I mean, I've seen the field just grow Tremendously five years ago when I was just frustrated, none of the apps sort of did what I thought they needed to do for mental health.
The acknowledgment that HRV is that kind of gold standard of the stress response. I'm just curious, as you look forward, where do you see us going as a field, as a science, and maybe specifically in recreational therapy as well?
[00:27:02] Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, that this is just the beginning. I think we're still kind of catching on. And I think people are, you know, I think like you said earlier, we are the early acceptors, the early kind of entrepreneurs that are like, oh, this looks great, let's do this. But there's going to be a lot of people down the road that are going to start to realize, like, hey, this is actually really good, like, we can see this information. I think that we're just getting started. And so I feel like the field is just going to continue to grow. More avenues, more opportunities, more interventions and protocols around this. You know, our biggest thing that we have, you know, is the heart rate variability, biofeedback, we have the resonance frequency, you know, those sorts of things that we have. But I don't think that that's it. I think that that's just the beginning. I think that there's so many more avenues and things that we're going to learn. Being able to also integrate this with other types of biofeedback and neurofeedback is really going to set us apart as well, is not saying, well, we only do one thing, you know, really being open to working with other people with their expertise and working with other modalities. And some of my research has also been using neurofeedback and different types of options related to that to be able to say, okay, we're going to use the neurofeedback, that's going to be the intervention. But we're also going to be collecting other data related to heart rate variability to see, like, how does that work? How can that show that this neurofeedback that showed improvements and maybe like increasing alpha, but also showed improvements in your heart rate variability. So having again, more information, more data, I think is really going to help. So having that integration with other interventions that we already know have seen can be helpful. But how can we really show that through how our body responds, I think is going to be huge. And even just, I think one of the big areas too is just getting more data on kind of like baselines, being able to see, like where people are right now. Where are they going? Those longitudinal studies, seeing how people's stress response changes throughout the day and learning about those things, I think that'll be really huge. I was at a conference recently and they were suggesting like, well, have you thought about this specifically for females throughout their, you know, menstrual cycle and how that could change different things. I mean all of that we still have so many more avenues and information that we're working on trying to get. And so this, yeah, this is just the beginning. I think there's so many different areas where we're going to learn a lot more about our bodies, how our bodies respond, how to regulate that, you know, our systems and those sorts of things. So I think this is, yeah, just the beginning.
[00:29:48] Speaker A: Well, and I love you mentioned women's health as well. Yeah, I, it's just been so grossly ignored and it's like it, you know, in some ways I think it's taken a lot of us to say, hey, we can, we, we've got, you know, we don't necessarily do a clinical trial on this but we can start to collect this information while giving people individualized.
I always love about HRV is it's the end of one, it's the end of you, it's the end of me and what does this mean for me? But also really it's like, you know, gathering this information at population levels, starting to get there around just such a horribly neglected area of science that I'm glad, you know, it's not just the HRV nerds that are doing it, but there's, there's that, there's that piece where hey, we can get a monitor, a watch or something on you and we can use this data to fill in some long overdue science and hopefully lead to a whole lot of medical insights and better health outcomes as well. So we just don't do research on why males for the rest of.
[00:31:01] Speaker B: Right, exactly. And even with, with disabilities too. You know, I am working with somebody here who is looking at adults with autism, which is again like an under studied group of individuals. And she's not really doing an intervention. What she's just doing is having them wear a device and just monitoring them to see kind of what those changes are. We don't even have that data yet. And so being able to get to just those, that baseline of information is just going to help us so much. And so yeah, again opportunities are endless. This is just the beginning.
[00:31:36] Speaker A: And I just, I've worked with in special education. It's just a population.
[00:31:40] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:40] Speaker A: A dear to my heart. And you know, what I loved about the job? It also frustrated me. It's like, you talk about n of 1. It's like there was so little science.
And each case, I think we use the autism umbrella to. To capture a whole range of spectrum of unique and beautiful personalities and really get some data on, hey, does. I mean, I saw a bouncy chair change people's life for others. It was. It was rushing. It was. And I adopted this weighted blanket. I got under one once that was in our sensory room. And I'm like, I. I need this at my house.
And I turn off the lights. I'm gonna take a nap now. Literally the greatest thing ever. So, I mean, but to see, like, how these interventions work for. For different individuals and what is the trigger as well, I always tell the story is we. We had a. A young man, never spoke a word. He was, I think about third or fourth grade, Just behaviors all over the place. But he would go into rooms, and he would switch the lights on and off and yell. And we're like, you know, it's disruptive to the classroom, but he's trying to tell us something. So we actually, you know, turned on, like, you know, Metallica was big at the time. That's how old I am. And I had a strobe light. I won't get into why I had a strobe light, but I did have a strobe light at the time. And he would sit in a room with Metallica blaring and Holden strobe light up to his eyes. And then he was regulated for about 45 minutes, which that 45 minutes may not sound like a lot for you and I, but for this young man, 45 minutes was enough to help him get through speech therapy and then get through occupational therapy and music therapy and actually sit in the classroom. And about three months later, he spoke his first words, and it was just like this. This beautiful thing. Now, my. The staff hated the intervention because being in a room with a strobe light and Metallica for five minutes every hour, you know, that they had to shift things. And I was like, I'll take one, you know? But to get insight on what the heck is going on under this skin and just support those interventions that are so untraditional is so exciting to me.
[00:34:10] Speaker B: It's so interesting. Yeah. And we have actually here at fiu, a day program for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities, which is really cool. So I've been able to get my classes in there to learn from them, to do different assessments and just interventions with them. And it's. Yeah, it's just amazing to see and to learn from them. Yeah, all of the different things. And, yeah, if we could add this aspect in and to be able to see, you know, maybe we would look at trends and be able to notice, like, okay, when this starts to happen, then, you know, that's their trigger that something is about to happen. So, yeah, it would be amazing.
[00:34:46] Speaker A: Well, you know, I'm looking for an excuse to come visit in person, so anything to get me down there. I know, like, we're out of winter time here in Colorado, but still, you're in one of my favorite parts of the country there in Florida. So, you know, well, we'll just keep fighting that. Give me a good excuse.
[00:35:06] Speaker B: So there you go. Maybe next winter once you're tired of the snow.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: There we go. Well, my friend, thank you so much. I know this is kind of short notice because I really wanted to get the word out to the listeners and alert them that the conference is happening. I'm so, so, so glad that again, even if it's too late for you to travel there, that that virtual option is available to folks. I will put in the show notes, the link to the conference.
Everything's very easy to find there. If you are coming, find the optimal booth if there's not a workshop going on, because I will be in the workshop if it is. But between those and at lunch, come stop by and say hi. And I'm excited to meet you in person as well. Yeah. And have some fun learning together.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:35:57] Speaker A: All right. Well, as always, you can find show notes information about Dr.
[email protected] and as always, we'll see you next week. Thank you so much.
[00:36:09] Speaker B: Thank you.
