Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of optimal LLC and optimal HR-v. Check us out at optimal HR-v dot com. Please enjoy the show.
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Welcome friends to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. I am Matt Bennett. I'm here with Greg Elliot today. Um, Greg, I am so excited to have on the podcast because, uh, I can say with great pride that I am a student of Greg's, uh, through the Elite Academy's Foundation of heart rate variability. As I was trying to figure out how to integrate certain solutions that were on the market, uh, into the mental health trauma world, uh, I needed to learn what the heck H R V was. And I went to Greg's course. Uh, I believe I, I watched it twice, and then I kept it on repeat, uh, on my dog walks for a few weeks at a time. So, uh, it is a great honor to have my teacher and somebody I've really admired over the years, uh, and excited to talk about his current work as well. So, so Greg, besides being, uh, my teacher, uh, I'd love to, uh, just do a quick introduction before we, uh, start nerding out about your work.
Speaker 2 00:01:36 No, absolutely. Thanks for, for having me on. And, and it's always great to hear stories of, of, again, the main purpose of the course was just to be able to kinda get the message out about heartbreak variability and kinda like the, you know, the whole understanding out for people to understand its, its value, uh, from the very basic standpoint. So it's great. You, you got a lot out of it and, and, uh, you know, I think it's, it's grown a lot of, uh, people's, um, you know, companies and, and, um, you know, spur new companies and, and everything that we did. So it's, it's been a, it was a, a great little project that Jason and I, uh, worked on. I'm glad you, you definitely got a lot out of it, but, um, yeah, thanks for, for having me on. It's, um, it's, uh, been a decade of, of using heart rate variability Now, uh, I can actually officially say that in, in, in clinical practice.
Speaker 2 00:02:19 Uh, so I'm an exercise physiologist, uh, kinesiologist and an osteopath in, uh, Vancouver Canada, uh, using heart rate variability has said for, for very long period of time for, for various types of populations. Um, and, um, you know, really trying to be able to my main, you know, um, um, path over the last, uh, little while to be able to just kind of spread the word about aha variability and, and mainly did show people how to use it from a process application. Sometimes it, again, can get a little confusing and, um, uh, a very, uh, nuanced in regards to Harvey variability. And so I try to provide some clarity around how can you utilize this marker, uh, for your population or for you to kind of get the most out of your health and wellbeing.
Speaker 1 00:03:03 Awesome. So I would love to go back to the beginning 10 years or so ago. What, what was your, what initially got you excited, uh, about heart rate variability?
Speaker 2 00:03:13 So I got introduced to it first, um, in my master's thesis. And so, uh, my master's thesis was around non-invasive ways of measuring heart function and, and we're trying to validate a specific device during exercise. And so I started reaching, uh, researching around various non-invasive ways of measuring, um, heart function in general. And so at the time, Harvey Variability was there, uh, I thought it was really cool, kind of marker included it, uh, some of it in, into my, um, my thesis into there. And, and so it was always kind of front of mind. And, and when I graduated and he came back home in in 2013, you know, uh, I started seeing it more and more kind of, you know, come out with the, the, the people that I respected into the field. I'm like, okay, well what is this thing? I'm like, how is this more applied into kind of the general population, uh, into that?
Speaker 2 00:03:57 And at the time in 2013, it was, it was really obviously, um, heavily involved with, you know, high performing athletes. You talk about the companies that were around were, uh, bio Force by Joel Jameson. You talk about Omega wave, uh, from their athlete outta the uk. So there was, there was a lot of the, um, you know, all geared around to the high performance aspect of it all. Um, and so me being me obviously wanted to dive in even more and kind of understand more of, okay, well what is more about this marker and, and everything, uh, to better understand. And I started to look at majority of the papers and research that I was out there, I started realizing it really came from, you know, from, from health. It came from, you know, overall people suffering from, you know, um, you know, heart attacks or various health issues, uh, to deal with the heart in particular.
Speaker 2 00:04:41 And I started, okay, well why is this? And, and started to realize the impact that it had on, on health more than, than anything. Yeah. And, uh, so, uh, I, I was very intrigued by that and, and, um, went to go down, met with Joel, cause had to get some devices, kind of, you know, to be able to play around with what's going on. Cause at the time it wasn't as accessible as it is today. Uh, you had to, you know, uh, get a package or an app that, that costs, uh, a significant amount of money. And so I got a few down and started to, uh, you know, test with my friends and coworkers and things like that. And my aha moment, um, with Harvey variability was, I had it on, on a few of my colleagues at, at work. And, and, and one of 'em came in one day and said, Hey Greg, you know, my, my HR v's.
Speaker 2 00:05:21 Usually I'll just throw out numbers around 80. Uh, and today it was 50. Like, why is that? Why, why is today? I feel fine, everything's normal. I go, I, I have no idea. I couldn't tell you. Right. Like, I was just trying to learn what's going on. And I was, I was very kinda like, I, I have no idea. Um, and this was really early in the morning that we started. It was about six o'clock that this happened. And so it, it was about an hour after she woke up that, uh, you know, she came to to work, um, literally an hour or two later. Um, she had to cancel the rest of her day and go home cuz she was so sick.
Speaker 1 00:05:52 Wow.
Speaker 2 00:05:53 So many symptoms, like stuff nose all like coughing and, and literally went home. And I go, oh, wow. Like, it, it relatively before she felt any symptoms was kind of predicting that something was going on with her body. Yeah. Right. And I was like, how that, like, how is this possible? Right? So I started to, you know, digging more into it and that kind of spurred the whole thing of really starting to get understanding of how, how this necessarily could be applied. Cuz at the moment it's kinda like, it was like, is today already a good day to train or not? Right. I started to realize that it can indicate something to do with, you know, other than training or something to do with, with inflammation or sickness, I was, I was very intrigued. And that kinda spurred into looking at all sorts of, of populations, um, uh, into that and, and, and now using it, uh, primarily with, um, you know, in my practice it's primarily, um, you know, chronic pain type of, of populations. You know, people with fibromyalgia are longstanding, uh, pains where they don't necessarily have a, a a anything medically wrong, but there's something kind of, you know, dysfunctional, um, uh, that they're, they're going through. And so that's kind of, uh, where I've kind of put my, my focus into and also also supporting people that are looking at all sorts of areas of, of health.
Speaker 1 00:07:00 Well, what I, I, I'm curious about what that, that, and it sounds like there was a shift from kind of like the, the peak performance, uh, arena to, you know, chronic pain, other things that, you know, so maybe the average person might encounter at some point in their life. I, I wonder like, what was that transition like a as you sort of moved into, because I, to me, that's where the real, I think the elite athletes have led the way, uh, in this arena and given us, uh, the everyday person a a nice role model to say, well, if LeBron James does this, maybe it's something I can pay attention to in my own life. I'd love to hear like as, as you evolved in your career, just kind of how, you know, H R V went along with you in that evolution.
Speaker 2 00:07:47 Yeah, it was, I mean, it was very hard initially, uh, especially when talking about different colleagues and different practitioners and things like that. Uh, like I said, uh, um, you know, there's a lot of people that took the, the foundation scores. And so we had like cardiologists take the course and be like, oh, I had no idea about these, this, you know,
Speaker 1 00:08:01 Information. I'm not that same experience. Yeah, yeah. Like,
Speaker 2 00:08:04 And I'm like, like, is this you, you haven't learned about this or anything. So it was, it was, it's
Speaker 1 00:08:09 Been around for a few decades now. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 00:08:12 Yeah. And so, and even to a point of they, they didn't necessarily realize of how we would translate to clinical practice or how we would work. Yeah. And, and so, um, it was a very difficult transition to say from a professional standpoint to get people understanding of kind of what this is. Right. Yeah. And, and I, and I'm so happy now that I don't have to go around being like, so heart rate variability is, and go into super basics and people go, well, I thought my heart rate was supposed to be like a metronome. And, and so like, it's more commonplace now of understanding that we needed more variable heart rate, uh, uh, at rest indicates some, some positive health outcomes. So, which was, which was fantastic. So from a professional standpoint, it, it took a little bit of, um, a massaging with people, a little bit of understanding for them to take, you know, take a deep dive in into that.
Speaker 2 00:08:54 Um, and then from a clinical practice perspective, you know, I just, I just tried to find something. Cuz to me, what, what the difficulty, uh, was, is that obviously with certain conditions that we deal with, we have some objective markers of, of, of progress, right? Yeah. We have some, um, you know, we can look at blood markers, we can look at this and that. And, and so for people that are suffering from certain conditions that I was dealing with, whether it's fatigue or, or chronic pain, things like that, there was nothing for me to be able to kind of determine progress really other than what they're, what they're telling me, right. Post-concussion, all that stuff. The subjective, uh, the, the diagnoses that rely on subjective measures in order to be able to, to determine that. So I thought, hey, you know, heart rate variability is a good indication of kind of our overall, uh, you know, ability to be in, in, in, um, a parent's, a pathetic state, which we know is associated with health, uh, and things like that.
Speaker 2 00:09:41 And started looking at some of the research is that, hey, you know, people that have heart disease or cancers or diabetes have lower heart rate variability. Maybe other diseases would, it would fit that as well. Yeah. And so that's where I started putting Barbie variability on people that, uh, you know, at the time there was not a lot of research around saying it would be a benefit, people with chronic pain, people with, you know, chronic fatigue or these kind of as we, you know, quote, invisible type of illnesses, whether it's PTs D or depression, kinda these more mood type of, of symptomologies to put them on, uh, this thing and say, can we use this marker to be able to kind of have an objective marker that we're, we're making the right decisions, we're doing the right stuff, we're doing the right things to making sure that we're, we're on the right track, right?
Speaker 2 00:10:21 Because that's a, is a very difficult thing. And with, with that type of population is determined, like, you know, is doing the meditation actually beneficial? Yeah. Is the breath breath work you're doing actually making long-term changes? Is the manual therapy I'm providing, is the exercise that I'm giving you, is it the right dosage at the right time at the right response? And so this was able to give me some of that kind of very high level feedback from these individuals, um, you know, to, to give that one marker. And this is, you know, the, the, what I love about Harvey variability to me is, is it's kind of that like overall umbrella marker that you can kind of look at from a, a single data point, uh, of saying like, things are, things are progressing, uh, or things are, are not progressing as much. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:11:02 I love that. And, and, you know, your, your work, and I'd love for you to talk about at, at Health QB as well. Like, I, I love from, from our conversation and, uh, just like looking at at the work you're doing now is it's, it seems like, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I think I'm pretty safe to say a very holistic approach to this. And, and that that's what I, I, I love where, like, looking at what you're doing, I, I just kind of like, yeah, how's heart rate variability sort of fit into what, what I see with your team now, a real holistic approach to a healthy individual, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually, um, with, with all, I think you have 30 factors, uh, of what you're, uh, looking at. I'd love to just see how heart rate variability fits in there.
Speaker 2 00:11:51 Yeah. So it's, it's, I mean, the, the big thing about, uh, you know, all started with the, the, the foundation's course was was, you know, people have an idea of kind of like, from a Harvey variability or health perspective, they have certain silos that, that they look into, right? It's, you know, uh, and I always ask this funny enough, in, in any interview that I, you know, for hiring a team member and things like that, I always ask like, what is health to you? Like, what is, what does it mean to be healthy? Right? And I'm always surprised by the answers because to me it's like, there's certain things that I would say in regard to what health would be. Yeah. Right? And, and to a degree where, you know, I get, you know, to the point of, of, you know, eating the right foods, uh, I get to the point of, of being happy and content.
Speaker 2 00:12:32 Uh, I, I would get to the point of, you know, you know, being around family and having good social, like, it, it was always very all over the place in regards to, to health, right? Yeah. And so to look at health as a, as a holistic type of, of model, you gotta take into all these kind of, you know, factors that, you know, people need, uh, in order to be, you know, healthy, right? Yeah. And so it, it comprises a lot of the biopsychosocial, uh, spiritual type of, of components. And so, uh, the, the biggest struggle, and this came from a struggle clinically to me, was, you know, using heart rate variability, doing that type of, uh, information. We see something that, that, you know, they have a very low Harvey variability comparatively to their demographics of where they should be, right? Um, but they've optimized their sleep as much as they can. Mm-hmm. They've done their, they're dialed in with the nutrition or doing 90% of it o of what they should be doing, and they're getting a, a regular amount of physical activity, but their Harvey variability is still low. Right. And it's, it was, it was like, how do I bridge that conversation of understanding how people's psychological and social habits actually impact their health and wellbeing? Because sometimes with the type A personalities that we deal with, they don't want necessarily wanna hear that. That's, it's their stress medic, they don't deal with stress Well, and
Speaker 1 00:13:41 I would imagine not, not the typical approach kind of from your at least educational background, and I don't want to like say you never think about that stuff, but definitely expansion. Uh,
Speaker 2 00:13:53 Well, it's, it's not as weighted as heavily that
Speaker 1 00:13:56 Grant, that's, that's, that's how I should have put it. Uh, yes.
Speaker 2 00:14:00 Yeah. But it's not weighted as heavily in regards to its impact on people's health and wellbeing. And, and it's, and it's two degrees. Like absolutely, you can make massive improvements in your health when it comes to looking at your sleep nutrition and looking at your physical activity, but you can also make massive improvements to your health from the psychosocial aspects of what's going on. Right. And so I want to be able to present that in a non-judgmental way, because I don't want to go to see, go to someone and be like, Hey, do you realize that your high powered job, that you have a poor relationship with your kids, and the fact that you travel all the time is actually impacting your health even though you're doing some other things that are absolutely fantastic? Right? Yeah. Because it's, it's, it's comes across sometimes like I'm, I'm almost like a personal attack.
Speaker 2 00:14:36 I'm like, well, how do I be able to kind of bridge that conversation through a medium that would be able to, to do that? And to me, it's like through data, right? That's how my head works, right? And so with this, with the, the company that we started, I want to be able to kind of have this holistic view of the standardized model of saying, okay, if we looked at everything, you know, relative to one another regards to its impact on health, can we determine which specific area of your health and wellbeing needs to be addressed more than others? Can we prioritize what's going on purely based on the data that we can, we can accumulate? So it's not like this, it's my opinion versus theirs, right? Is literally something that is not judgemental. That's their answers of saying, Hey, look where you are comparatively where you should be, and let's start to be able to address those things. So that's how kind of everything necessarily came bound when we start to realize the impact of, of, um, you know, uh, dealing with this, this holistic type of model on people's, on people's health. Um, and we we're seeing obviously phenomenal results. And, and, and I think the biggest thing is that people are becoming aware of like what health actually means. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:15:36 Yeah. And, and I love this too, because it, what well har like from, because I come from that mental health perspective. Uh, w which again, is what, what do we weigh? Well, we weigh heavily talk therapy, uh, you know, depression, scales, anxieties, scale, you know, and, and what I loved, and your course really, uh, challenged me to think this way. And it was one of those initial sparks is like, you know, and then the folks who listen to this podcast are gonna be tired that Yeah, take a drink, everybody, Matt's gonna talk about his ceiling. But if I don't talk about like, sleep movement, uh, you know, nutrition areas, I started out with no expertise on. I really said a, a ceiling on how much I could could help people. So it is like, it brings where you and I could have existed in the world caring about the same things, but maybe never having a shared vocabulary.
Speaker 1 00:16:35 This little biometric brings us together to learn from each other. And I, I just like, that's the whole exciting thing about this journey in so many ways. It's like, oh, there's so much I can learn from Greg that I could actually bring into the mental health world, and now it looks a little different, but it's, or does Greg enter my treatment team in a different way? And that, that to me is like that the exciting piece of where we're at is that we're starting to look at the body as sort of this holistic system, and then this rhythm of your heart gives you data on that entire system. And, and I just find that such a cool place to be, uh, in, in this time, uh, that we're in.
Speaker 2 00:17:23 Oh, I love it. And, and, and like, again, you know, going through this, you know, from, from a clinical perspective, I always say to the person, you know, based on my assessments, based on the results, I wanna make sure they're in the right room.
Speaker 1 00:17:34 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:17:35 I know what I'm good at, right? Yeah. I, and I am very aware of what I'm not good at. Yeah. Right? And I wanna make sure that like, if I go down my, with my lens that we're going down the right path, right. For this specific person. Right? And so, uh, this is where Harvey variability has been a great feedback mechanism saying, I'm doing my things this, this type of stuff. I use it in conjunction, this kind of holistic marker I can have, you know, when it comes to movement, I do my movement data that I have, and I kind of go through that process of going through that if those things are necessarily improving. But we're, we're, but we're not necessarily moving the needle on Harvey variability. And, and this person's goal is health and longevity. I kinda go, well, maybe we're not doing the right things at right now. Like, let's start to be able to figure out what other areas, because, you know, uh, uh, it sometimes, you know, with profession will say with osteopathy, for me, people go, oh, if I do osteopathy, I can impact this person's health and wellbeing with everything that I possibly can. I, I have all the tools necessary for me, but in my head, I always went to the point, well, well, how do dieticians help people then?
Speaker 1 00:18:35 Right. Right. Exactly.
Speaker 2 00:18:37 Like, how, how do sleep therapists, how do clinical counselors or like those people get people better? Yeah. Right. So like, I don't have all the tools, this doesn't make sense Yeah. Into what's going on. So how can we collaborate with saying, how can we get the person in front of the right type of therapy at the right time to go forward? And so that's, that was always my, my approach. And, and you know, my, my sessions are, my initial sessions are typically 90 minutes when it comes to, cuz I wanna, I want to get this background and whether this person's story understand of where they're at and where I feel we can be able to kind of go with this individual or say like, listen, my opinion is you need to go here first.
Speaker 1 00:19:12 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:19:13 Go, go here first. We'll address those things. And then when, when that practitioner therapist says it's ready to go, we can come back into this room and we can start with our process. But that, that's where we need to go first.
Speaker 1 00:19:23 Right. Well, and I love too, it's like, well, you, you maybe seeing a dietician, nutritionist, a therapist exercise, you know, we're working on the, the movement and maybe gargle and take a hot cold alternating shower as well. Like, like join a choir to me as a mental health. Like that's what it's like. Maybe a acquirer might be, I mean, you got that social co here. I mean, it's just like, it opens up all these things and gar, I I've never been a fan of the gag reflex one, but like Yeah, yeah. Gargle, like, gargle, like, so I mean there, there, there's so many doors that open, uh, with this that I, I just think it's like we're, we're discovering different things about like different approaches, I think to overall health healing and, and I think even disease of looking at this at different, different levels that I, I really hope will change the western approach to the medical model. And I don't like demonize the medical model because it saved so many lives. Yet I think there is so much that this challenge is that sort of symptomatic diagnosed, there's one treatment approach, uh, that I, I just don't think works for so many people.
Speaker 2 00:20:43 Yeah, no, it's, it's, and it, it's intriguing like when, you know, I, I just saw something that, that, you know, hospitals were designed for for when people have these kind of like, you know, big injuries or big illnesses or big sicknesses. Right. And it's obviously being come by our, our behaviors and, and how we're dealing with, you know, life in general, how our life is, is that these behaviors are breeding these chronic diseases. Like you're not supposed to be at a hospital for like to be there and stay there. Right. You're designed to go there and get something and then leave and be done. Yeah. Right? That's, that's the whole point of hospitals. It's in and out. Right. And we've created this model where people are just like constantly there in a constant time. Yeah. And because of these, these development of these chronic diseases over that, and, and some of the stats that are kind of like shocking to me, um, was, you know, uh, uh, there's a, a, um, functional medicine doctor that, that, uh, showed the study where the fact that 93% of Americans now are, are classified as metabolically unhealthy.
Speaker 1 00:21:37 Yeah. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 00:21:38 And to me, the even more shocking factor is there was a big study being done that looked at, you know, some just, you know, very easy predominant health behaviors when you talk about not smoking, um, you know, having a relative balanced diet, uh, getting a minimum amount of, of, of, uh, physical activity and exercise. Um, and, and, uh, I can't remember the, the, the last one, um, but there was like four factors. I'll, I'll, I'll I'll send you the study so we can post it. Yeah, that'd be great notes. But there's these four predominant factors that show like, hey, if you do these things like, you know, you're, you're mitigating a lot of risk of, of chronic disease. And they did a study of like 5,000, uh, Americans to see like how many actually people did these things. Yeah. And you know, how many people actually, percentage wise, how many people actually did all like four these basic, uh, behaviors? It was 2.7%. Oh,
Speaker 1 00:22:23 Gosh. I I was gonna guess 10. Uh, so
Speaker 2 00:22:26 2.7% Right. Do all the basic four fundamental, uh, health behaviors. Right. And they, they looked at the study and kinda go, well, how many people did none of 'em, like how many people didn't engage in any of those things? Right. 11%. So four times as many people didn't do any of these health behaviors. Not one of 'em. Yeah. Imperatively to only 2.77 did all four. Right. So it's like you, you're looking at like 97% of the population is doing some sort of, of, of, uh, in, uh, behavior that's increasing the risk of development of chronic diseases.
Speaker 1 00:23:00 Wow. Yeah. And, and I wonder like, so, so I, I have a couple just like questions I have to ask my teacher as a follow up to the course. So Yeah. Uh, one is, I, I would love to get, because it just seems to me like something we need to learn to talk about that every research study I've come out with and I've done some, like in of one studies on myself, alcohol li like, that, that to me is like, I'm starting to think about it and I know people again, it's like, that's how bad. But it's like, it does seem like it's smoking was when I was young. Like, you used to be able to smoke on a plane for goodness sakes, like restaurants, you know, I, you know, and even when I was like baring age, you know, you had almost come home and burn your clothes after you went out because it was so disgusting. I, I wonder like, I, I'd love to get your opinion because I, I believe you mentioned, I mean, alcohol doesn't get any props in the heart rate variability world. A and I just kinda wonder how you approach this with folks. Cuz I'm starting to see it as a toxic thing that is we put in our body and I just, I gotta take, I gotta take advantage of my time with you to get your, uh, thoughts on this. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:24:22 Totally. Actually, a good case example about this is that we have somebody on our system that, um, was suffering for fibromyalgia and she used alcohol for 13 years as a coping mechanism. Yeah. Right.
Speaker 2 00:24:31 And, um, she understood that it may not be the best thing for her help, which goes, but it's a way for me to deal with my pain. Right? Absolutely. Like, so she goes with stuff, she started mo monitoring her H HR R H R V. Yeah. And she started to realize the nice that she drank, they started to see the absolute tanking that she had in regards to heart rate variability, right? Yeah. And she's like, it was unbelievable to see the absolute change in my health from an objective standpoint. And from that it is now, since October 31st, she has not had a drink since.
Speaker 1 00:25:05 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:25:05 Right. And, and so like, it, it's one of those, and Health Canada just came out to the point of like, oh, there's like, oh, maybe one drink, you know, this or a couple drinks a week. Yeah. Health Canada just came out and said, no drinks a week, no drink.
Speaker 1 00:25:15 Yeah. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:25:17 Like, no. Like, it's, it's to a point. It's like there's no benefit. Right. And yeah. Cause
Speaker 1 00:25:21 There were like at times of two drinks a day, I mean, binary gender roles here, but two for men, one for women Totally. Um, was supposed to be good for you that that message that was out there for quite a while,
Speaker 2 00:25:36 Even something relatively, they seem like the blue zone diets, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blue zone where they said it's like the, the alcohol consumption is the part of the, now I I obviously think that personally has to do with more the social aspect of the, the alcohol than itself. And it's not to the point that they're having, you know, many drinks. It may just have a, a glass of wine. Yeah. But that social kind of component of, of what's going on from that perspective, it's not like they're sitting. That's
Speaker 1 00:25:57 The only area I also see it hanging on. And I know I've never seen any explanation of why that might be. I uninformed people still, I again, and I'm, I, I judge being a mental health person talking out my zone, but like Okay. Like thins the blood maybe. Yeah. But that doesn't, I, I think when I hear the blue folks talk the blue zone folks, I was like, yeah. Haven't kind of looked at the research on this. Like yeah. It, it probably be so much other healthy stuff that that doesn't, that gets kind of, uh, shifted out on of the negative category maybe.
Speaker 2 00:26:34 Totally. And, and I'm starting to see from the ground grassroots, you know, like you, you see certain grassroots movements around various things Right. You know, kind of early on with the mental health, uh, you know, push that that was, uh, you know, before Covid had really exponential before covid and just certain things you start to see that just trending in certain interactions. Yeah. And for sure when you talk about the high performed individuals and people that are kinda at the forefront start to grow things that are kind of like the CEOs of big companies Yeah. That are relatively young, you're starting to see to the point of like, uh, no alcohol for me, like I've stopped. Yeah. Right. And you're to see that more and more that message come through where people are going to alcohol free and, and, and, you know, showing the difficult, uh, transition that they're having in a social setting of saying, because you know, the number one thing people go and they Oh, like you go to a social setting and like, oh, I don't drink. You usually think of like there's a reason why
Speaker 1 00:27:21 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. That, that, that in, uh, I, I'm also eat a plant-based diet just for, for why the, the two things I hate most talking about like, because everybody's doing it. Well, you have to talk about how bad there, you know, it is just like, it is the social aspect. Um, that's why I'm all for having kombucha on tap because Oh yeah. If I right to say give Matt his special drink too, we're all good <laugh>, like, make Matt drink water while you're having a nice ipa. Matt gets a little jealous. But, uh, yeah. As long as Matt gets his special drink too, uh, we're all good.
Speaker 2 00:27:57 Yeah. No, but you, you're starting to see it, it'll push a lot more. Right. Even even to see it, it can see even with, with our, our company, right? Yeah. Like, you know, see people more and more having, um, that kind of alcohol-free lifestyle and see people more acceptable and people just, yeah. It, it's, as more research comes out, it's starting to detrimental facts of, of doing it on a chronic basis or, or even to the point of doing it once you start to see the, what it actually is to, to your body. H HIV's a phenomenal feedback mechanism. Uh, I remember back in the day with, uh, where, where I'm at in my clinical practice, which is fifth, the train in, in, in Vancouver, um, where we were all measuring Harvey variability. We had a, uh, uh, accompanied party one night. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:28:32 And
Speaker 2 00:28:32 Then everyone's setting everyone's H R V results through <laugh> Yeah. Through the group messaging of like, oh, you'd like look at the graph, like, look what's going on. And, and, uh, you see the, the impacts of, of what it has on your body.
Speaker 1 00:28:44 Right. Absolutely. Amazing thing. So I would also love to know, because it's been a few years now since that foundation training, uh, came out and, and I think that, and a lot of other factors have heart rate variability is more pervasive. I mean, you have a student here who started the heart rate variability podcast and part thanks. Due to, uh, your education of me in getting excited about this in the mental health arena. I, I'd love to. What, what do you think the, the current state of H R V is? Somebody who's been really involved in this for, for 10 plus years now. What, I mean, we got the Apple watch out there, we've got yahoo's like me who got excited about this now too. There's probably a lot more company for better or worse, but I just love if you looked at the current state of this biometric, I I'd love the good, the bad, the ugly, uh, where, where you see, uh, the current state being.
Speaker 2 00:29:44 Yeah, I think the good is the fact that it's becoming, uh, more mainstream in regards to the regular consumer understanding, you know, the, the value of this type of, of metric. I think that's a good, I think the good is obviously accessibility, uh, as well mm-hmm. <affirmative> when it comes to, you know, various devices coming out in the market is they're coming out, uh, people are saying that they're measuring it, and, and so people are being, uh, privy to this type of, of, uh, infor information, which, which is, which is great. Um, I mean, the bad part is, is I think obviously there's still a lot of education needs to be done for the raising consumer to understand of, of what this, this marker is and how of much of value it could be. I think because, and this is one of the things that I was trying to be able to, to, to, or were trying to be able to solve, is the fact that, you know, you, you have a device that measures target variability, but there's so much data in there.
Speaker 2 00:30:30 Yeah. There's so much data in regards to, you know, respiration rate and steps and activity levels and Fitbit with their activity points and Yes. And, uh, you know, there's, there's so much data that's in there, right? Yeah. And we know through, through, you know, people monitoring, um, um, their health through variables. It's like actionability of data and interpretation of data is, are kind of the two biggest reasons why people abandon it, is they just, they just don't know what to do with the data. And then there's this like, well, what is this data? Like, you know, what is the value? So it's kind of convoluted and it's kind of put in there without necessarily highlighting it's, it's value comparatively to the other metrics and kind of where it sits in conjunction of it all. Yeah. Um, that's to be, uh, uh, that and, and, uh, another, the, the, the, um, the bad part is, is obviously the, you know, as, as it gets out there more accessible, the, the kind of the quality of the, of the h hiv data coming through.
Speaker 2 00:31:18 I just tested a, a wearable product. I had four on at one point, <laugh> and, uh, and, uh, yeah, my, my team calls me something, it was a, the human cyborg version too, uh, yeah. Yeah. Was, uh, wearing all these devices and things like that. And you start to be to see of like even the, you know, the, the, the messaging there from the company. Even the fact of like, you know, the engineering is there for the company, the data that comes in spit out, you're like, you can't use this. Like, comparatively, it's like, it's so far off in regards to it's, it's actual metrics. It's like, ah, like it's, it's, it's, you know, people are trying to jump the bandwagons, but it's kind of decreasing the quality of the data necessarily that that comes out. Um, so that's be the, that and then the ugly, uh, uh, portion of it all.
Speaker 2 00:32:01 I don't necessarily, there, there's too much, uh, uh, of the, uh, ugly component of it all. But I think, I think, um, um, I, I think obviously the, the, the, the application of, of Harvey Beard, the actionability is something that seems to be still very segmented. Yeah. In, in the fact of like, people have these narrow views and narrow scopes in, into how to best improvement and have, uh, have certain things. And like, uh, again, like I've seen, you know, when you talk about, um, interventions that work for people, like, it's all over the, the map. Like for me, I remember actually one of the ones that improved my heart variability at specific time was being more social, right? Yeah. And not social drinking, but just interacting with people and being more social. I've had it where people have done it, obviously through me, you know, constant meditation through, through, uh, cold shower, ice bath from journaling. I've seen someone actually have a hundred percent increase in their heart rate variability. Wow. From, from literally
Speaker 1 00:32:56 Lisa, a ex practicing therapist smile guys. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:59 Yeah, yeah. Exactly. Cool. And, and this is, and I, when I tell that story about the journaling person, and, and, uh, I'll, I'll, I'll give it a little case study here, but like, when you start to tell the people in the athlete population of it all, or, or kind of more that kind of meta biomedical side, they're like, really? Like, I, I always, when I bring that example up, like they're just dumbfounded about like how something like that could be a benefit. So Right. Give a little bit of a backstory. This was a, a user that was wearing, uh, uh, a wearable for many months. Right. And, um, um, she's 38. Uh, so she's the wife of a ex-professional hockey player, um, you know, very well off. Yeah. Um, you know, a few kids. Uh, and, um, but she got Lyme's disease and has been suffering consequences, uh, uh, of that, uh, right. And so one of the reasons, you know, uh, um, working with, uh, our team members, uh, she got a, uh, she got a, a wearable and started to be able to kinda monitor H R V and, and for months, like two, almost three months of data prior to us doing anything. Um, really, she never had a score above 30 milliseconds in R M S S D. Mm. Right.
Speaker 1 00:33:58 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:33:58 Great diet. Yeah. Physically active, sees all the practitioners that kind of, you know, naturopaths and, and, uh, doctors and this and that to kind of overcome various things. Uh, uh, you know, tries to get a, a, a decent amount of sleep every single night and things like that. And everything seemed to be good, and I won't give too much, uh, away in regards to the case study, but it, it had to do more with like understanding her emotions and expressing them in a, in a, in a more positive way of getting out rather than internalizing everything. And so having that purpose and doing that with journaling, uh, she had a, a month where her score was an average of 45 mm Wow. When never having anything higher than 30 ever.
Speaker 1 00:34:37 That's impressive. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:34:38 Right. And that was the only major change Yeah. Was being able to do that and have conversations with her husband on certain issues and blah, blah, blah, blah. It was that, that, that weight off her shoulders of having some time for her to do that and, and making her feel more of value, boom. It's like all of a sudden you go, you see that, that increase in stay, you're like, okay,
Speaker 1 00:34:56 There it is. Well, what, what a motivator too, to, to, to, to get data at that level on that, that behavioral adjustment.
Speaker 2 00:35:06 Well, that's the thing is like, she's like, I've done journaling in the past, and like, I don't know if it was a benefit. Like, and, and, and this is the thing is that like she saw this data change. She kind of goes, oh, I guess, oh, I guess, okay, well, now noticing it's like that feedback that people needed to be able to, to be able to continue that. And she obviously continues that to this day, but it, it's such a, uh, it's such an important feedback mechanism for people that have these more of a subjective or non non-medical diagnostic, uh, from an objective standpoint, uh, metric to be able to kind of go off of, just to go off of how they feel.
Speaker 1 00:35:37 Yeah. So, so the, the, the final question I have for you until your answer brings up two or three more, but, uh, yeah. The, the, the final one I have to ask you is where, where do you see us five, 10 years from now? Where, where do you, as you look into the future, obviously you're a part of that future doing some amazing work. W where do you see this going?
Speaker 2 00:36:00 Yeah, I, I, I, I see, you know, Harvey variability being more integrated in regards to out of, out of clinic, out of patient type of care. Yeah. Right. Like you, very much the point of it, it's a great, you know, uh, behavior, uh, easy to obtain, uh, um, uh, behavior modification tool that we can, we can be able to assist people, uh, in supporting the right, you know, behavior change and decisions. Right. I don't think it, the future is in diagnostics, uh, in regards to diagnosing various things. Um, I don't think it'd be as specific as as that, but the, from a holistic type of marker, I've seen this being an absolute fantastic way, an easy, uh, uh, measurement to obtain, to be able to making sure that people are, are doing the right things, making the right choices, and, and, and just to be aware of, of their health at, at various moments.
Speaker 2 00:36:44 Right. When you talk about like, you know, the, as as people come out with more of these continuous, uh, uh, um, continuous wearables that kind of measures things it can indicate of saying, Hey, are you stressed right now? Calm down, take these breaths. Like what, what Leaf is trying to be able to do in regards to their, their, their software. Yeah. Um, you know, you talk about, you know, overall of, uh, you know, making sure that we recover through the day in regards to nocturnal captures of heart rate variability and, and, uh, you know, making sure that indicating, hey, you know, your, your body didn't fully recover, make sure that you do this and that today, or, you know, whatever. Right. It, it's, it's more that atlin, uh, uh, decision making for people, um, to, to make the right choices and the right decisions, and hopefully kind of going towards that, more of that prevention type of model.
Speaker 2 00:37:26 So we hopefully start to be able to shift some of this, you know, the progression of these kind of chronic diseases that are becoming more rampant, uh, be able to kinda control those things. Uh, you know, outside of having to be in a, in a specific facility, meeting with an individual. Yeah. Uh, all the time. It's, it's that access to higher quality care, uh, for people, especially in, in remote populations, are people that may not be as financially well off to be able to spend the money to go see somebody about something, but making healthcare more accessible, uh, to everybody at a very high level to understand what they need to do to kind be their own advocate for their health and wellbeing. Um, and then, and then use that feedback. And I think this with heart rate variability to kind of help them guide, uh, the right decisions. So that's where I kind of see a big, a big push, um, for, you know, heart rate variability in, in particular when it comes to, you know, improving overall quality of life.
Speaker 1 00:38:17 Love it. I, I, I could ask a million more questions, but I think you ended it on such a beautiful note there. I will not ruin that with a five minute question that I'll just ramble on with. So, uh, we'll put information links into the show notes. Just if, if somebody's listening to this, they're in the car, where, where can they find out more about, uh, you and your work?
Speaker 2 00:38:38 Yeah, so, um, um, our startup company, uh, is called Health qb. Uh, so it's your health qb.com. Um, we're there, we're kind of in, in, in kind of beta stage in regards to, to what's going on. So you can kind of check out that, obviously the foundations of, of heart rate variability course there. Um, at the lead H r rv, uh, academy, uh, you can find them, uh, uh, there. Uh, the last part from a clinical standpoint, uh, I work out of a company called Fit to Train. They're, they're in Vancouver. Uh, so from a clinical aspect, that's where you can find me as well. All my information is, is there to be able to contact me, LinkedIn and Instagram, and all the type of stuff to be able to find me. Uh, I'm pretty accessible when it comes to that stuff. So, uh, any questions, I'll be sh shoot my way.
Speaker 2 00:39:16 I'd love to be able to, to talk to anybody that's interested in this stuff. And, and, uh, I just wanna say now I want you to keep up the phenomenal work that you're doing, try to promote this stuff. Uh, again, like you're fighting the good fight of, of trying to get this out there if people don't understand of how to take a control of, uh, of all our lives. And again, my hope with the course is, is, is, is to be able to inspire people like you to be able to go out and be able to support this message and be able to continue to grow it. Right? It's just, I wanted to facilitate this type of conversation to be had, uh, to be able to keep going. So I'm obviously absolutely loving the work that you're, you're, you're doing. Uh, so please keep up with it.
Speaker 2 00:39:48 And, uh, as I kind of always say at the end of whether it's podcast or webinars or things, I, I wanna take, thank you, everybody that's listening to take the time outta your day, whether it's, I know you're taking time away from, you know, uh, uh, doing work or, or being with family or whatever necessarily may be, I want to thank, uh, Matt, you and obviously the listeners of taking the time to be able to sit down with us to, to, to, you know, learn more about Harvey variability and how to best help your health.
Speaker 1 00:40:12 Absolutely. And thank you so much. One of the great things about the, the journey you started me on is to, to share that. I, I think, you know, as somebody who does, uh, has made my living over the last, uh, decade, decade and a half just doing trainings, you, you sometimes throw out seeds. Uh, I, I see that. And sometimes they hit fertile ground and I see that person doing, doing amazing work. Other times it may need a wind to blow it and it ends up somewhere else. But, uh, I thank you for planning, uh, this passion within me and, and really giving a concrete direction to go. And then, uh, I, I just, I love the journey that I hit a point in this, that, uh, you reached out to me kind of in a non-related way to ask a question. Uh, I had, I was like, Ooh, I, I got, I, I got Greg and I shared with my teammates, like Greg reached out to me. He's, they're like, the, the, the course guy. I'm like, yeah, <laugh>. So, so I've got, I'll just shout out to my team, especially Dr. Dave Hopper, a little bit jealous. I gotta do this interview, but, uh, I just wanna thank you for all the great work you've done, and it's, it is a honor to be a student of yours, and I'm excited to continue to learn, uh, from the great work that you're doing.
Speaker 2 00:41:25 No, bright, I got you. I'm excited for what you guys are doing as well. So this is, this is great.
Speaker 1 00:41:30 Awesome. Well, as long as you can find show notes, optimal hb, uh, podcast optimal hrb.com, uh, we'll put all Greg's links in there too so you can get a hold of him. And, uh, Greg audience, thank you so very much, and, uh, we'll see you next week.
