Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us out at optimalhrv.com Please enjoy the show.
Welcome, friends, to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. I am back here with my dear friend, often guest of the show, Dr. Ina Hazan. Ina, how you doing today, my friend?
[00:00:43] Speaker B: I'm doing well, thank you, Matt. Always a pleasure to chat with you.
[00:00:47] Speaker A: Awesome. I love the new office. Got some art back there, diploma. I love it. It's looking good. Is looking good.
[00:00:55] Speaker B: Thank you. It's good to be settled in.
[00:00:57] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, I'm excited to bring you into the series that we have been doing, talking about how professionals with this expertise around hrv, HRV biofeedback integrated into their own practice. It's one thing to say, okay, we want patients to practice 20 minutes a day or 40 minutes a day or whatever it might be. It's another thing about how you take all this learning that you've done and integrated into your own health and wellness practices. So I know firsthand you are a busy person. Not only are you a highly successful professional, your private practice, Harvard Medical School trainings that you do, me bugging you around, optimal hrv, you're also raising three, what seemingly are brilliant children with that MIT husband of yours, just highly successful in their endeavors as well. So I'm really curious, my friend, how. Let's start maybe just with HRV tracking that you do, how have you used and use HRV as a metric in your own life to stay healthy and.
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Well, well, I gotta say, you know, since, you know, optimal, you know, came into my life, you know, it's. It's really been a game changer because I've started doing HRV practice in one way or another in 2002, 2003, something like that. It's been a really long time back, you know, before I could even dream about, you know, having something at home where I could measure things. Right. It was, you know, in the office, you know, you go in, you do your measurement and, you know, since I had equipment or access to equipment was a little easier for me personally, but it was certainly not something that I could even think about having at home. Yeah. And in the last two years, having access to a measurement has really been pretty incredible. You know, I've been practicing, I've been doing my HRV breathing for over what, 23 years, something like that, right? It's, you know, crazy how, how time flies and you know, I've had, you know, I've been able to do measurements and I've been able to keep track of progress and data, but now that I can do this daily, it's really, it's really remarkable. So, you know, it's in many ways kind of game changing.
What, what this tells me is just what do I need to pay attention to, like little nuances, the kind of stuff that I could never figure out before with like, you know, weekly, you know, measurement or maybe a couple times a week measurement that I, that I would do myself. Now it's just, you know, my reader is on my bedside table, you know, next to my phone and it's, it's easy, I grab it, I take a reading and it just gives me an idea of what do I need to pay attention to today.
You know, when I'm, when I didn't get a very good night's sleep, I can see, well how much did this affect my hrv. And you know, it's actually funny how while not getting a good night's sleep always affects my HIV to some extent, that the effect itself does vary. You know, some days when I, you know, it might get the same not great night of sleep, but some mornings my HRV is affected a little bit and other mornings it's affected a lot.
So those kinds of nuances that you know. Of course I know that if I don't sleep well, my HRV is affected. It's gonna, duh. But how much it's affected makes a difference and it tells me do I need to like, how much scaffolding do I need to build into my day?
I, I realize there is a little bit of a self fulfilling prophecy there, right. If I see a higher number, you know, I'm going to feel better about it, you know, just by seeing that number and you know, seeing a lower number, you know, it may affect how I feel as well. So I'm fully aware of it. But this is still really helpful. Helps me plan my day, you know, helps me think, you know, what kind of challenges can I take on or you know, if I, you know, this is a day with a lot challenges coming up. I know when and how I need to build in. Extra breaks, extra self care, et cetera.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Awesome. So I would love to hear with access to HRV biofeedback earlier than most anybody Else, being a practitioner yourself, I would love to go back to the early days when you first got your higher end equipment.
What was it like to. I'm sure you probably got a little training before doing that. Just kind of using that, playing around with it on yourself. I'm really curious about some of those early months with that equipment in your office.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: I mean, it was, it was fun.
It still is, you know, it still is, but it was, you know, this was when I fell in love with biofeedback and this was back when I was still figuring out what the heck HRV really is.
And you know, back then there was a lot, a lot more know about it still. A lot we don't know about it back, you know, but back 20 years ago there is a whole lot more, you know, we were, we were still learning. So it was fun to just see, well, what is my body doing and you know, what are all these measurements doing for me in order for me to explain HRV to clients When I first, when I was first learning this, you know, so I was introduced to this during training and graduate school. You know, I was learning all sorts of things at the time, including just, you know, how to be with clients, you know, how to help them on what was most helpful, what wasn't so helpful and discovering the power of biofeedback and particularly HRV biofeedback was really pretty incredible. I was finding myself being able to help people that were at the end of their rope and kind of desperate. Nothing else was helping and they were getting a benefit from this.
So it was a situation where I had to practice on myself a. Just because I wouldn't be comfortable practicing on clients without, you know, first hooking up someone else and you know, me, me mainly, you know, trying all those new skills. But also this was definitely something that if I didn't know how it felt, I wouldn't be able to train clients. This is absolutely a situation where I have to practice what I preach or else I certainly, I can't preach it effectively. Right. You know, I absolutely have to try this on myself and train, train myself first is, you know, people have so many questions and there's no way to answer them unless I've tried this myself.
[00:08:11] Speaker A: Yeah. I'm just curious, do you. Because in, in clinical work, you know, there's different sort of approaches of how much, you know, self disclosure that, that we do. In other words, using our own experience as, you know, to, to supplement our clinical, you know, work with clients, you know, by, you know, in therapy, we're told to do very little of it. Others like peer support advocates, you know, it's part of their, their work is because they have that lived experience. I'm just kind of curious, you know, how you kind of use your learning curve with you to kind of work with clients and do you bring in your own experience at all into your work with them?
[00:08:57] Speaker B: Well, I think I at this point have probably done, you know, have probably made every mistake possible. Although I'm, I'm sure that, you know, in my next session I'm going to do something that I have not yet thought of, but it feels like I've made every mistake possible. So that certainly goes a very long way. Right. Because you know, when things go wrong at this point. Oh yeah, I've done that. I've seen this. Yeah, yeah, this happens.
And, and, and yes, you know, as a psychologist, kind of that idea of self disclosure is a little bit tricky, right, because we're certainly trained with, you know, you do very little self disclosure. You know, self disclosure is frowned upon and you know, that view has been evolving over the last few decades as well.
But you know, with biofeedback, with hrv, I think it's, it's crucial to have, have that experience and to be able to share some of it. You being careful to observe, you know, observe the appropriate boundaries, but just being able to say, yeah, you know, that's happened, I've done that and this is, this is normal and this is, you know, part of what happens and this is what you're doing, this is how you deal with it. So yes, I, I do share some about my experience because it helps people then refine their own practice.
[00:10:21] Speaker A: I love that. So I'm curious like as you start to hook yourself up, I'm assuming like did you go in, maybe do a couple sessions on yourself a week, like you have all that fun equipment there before, you know, you could really take it home and do much meaningful stuff. Like did you just go in early a few days a week? Kind of. How did you kind of practice, you know, early on with the equipment?
[00:10:51] Speaker B: Well, yeah, whenever I could sneak in a little bit of time, whether it was going in early or you know, in between clients. You know, it was initially, it was equipment shared with a whole bunch of other people, you know, sneak in when equipment was being used. You know, I snuck, you know, a couple of friends and you know, my father in, you know, it was important to practice on non judgmental people with whom I could make all sorts of mistakes and you know, and all of that being okay before I could feel comfortable really trying, you know, trying this with, with actual clients. So yeah, initially I hooked up myself whenever I could and snuck in friends and family because it was not equipment I could take home back then.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: Yeah. So I, you know, one of the things like that, that I really, once I started Residents frequency breathing and integrating that in after probably practicing mindfulness for probably 12 years before doing that, you know, I always kind of use. It's a terrible analogy, but at the same time, I can't think of a better one of like, you know, I always felt like mindfulness, mindful breathing that I did over the years was like taking my autonomic nervous system, my ventral vagal system to, to the gym for a good workout and is with resonance frequency is like going to the gym on growth hormones and steroids. I say it's a terrible analogy, but it's the best I've come up with because obviously, you know, steroids and stuff, we're not saying go use that because of the negative side effects, but it was such a different experience, you know, maybe a little bit during the practice, but boy, after, you know, weeks of doing it, I'm just like, I'm. I just felt like I was getting a much better return on investment from my practice. And I kind of wonder, as you sort of went in and started regular practice, sort of just some of the things that maybe were some insights to, to you kind of along the way. Were you practicing mindfulness before you started resonance frequency breathing? Kind of. What was your journey with that now?
[00:13:01] Speaker B: I was introduced to biofeedback before I even knew what mindfulness really was.
[00:13:06] Speaker A: Fascinating.
[00:13:07] Speaker B: That's really funny. Right the other way around for folks. Now. I, I learned biofeedback and I knew a little bit about mindfulness, but biofeedback was kind of my first introduction into this world and then started, you know, learning and integrating mindfulness and self compassion and discovering just how well the two go together.
But, you know, starting to do this back in graduate school, you know, because I was learning so many new things, it just kind of gradually became part of life. That's the nice thing about developing a habit is, you know, it's hard to develop new habits. It's really, it's really difficult. And now when I look back at the last couple decades, you know, HIV practice is just, it's just what I do.
And that, that's really nice. You know, when, you know, people ask me, you know, how do you cope with, you know, child tantrums? I mean, those are far behind me too for the most part, you know, or you know, do you cope with teenagers?
You know, HRV is just such a go to. It's something that I kind of fall into that self regulatory breathing pace almost subconsciously. It, you know, I remember, you know, not non sleeping babies and you know, what do you do with that? Like, well, you breathe. It just makes, makes the whole thing so much, so much easier.
You know. Now when I sit at my, you know, kids competitions and you know, my stomach is a knots, what do I do? I breathe right here.
This is just, this is just part of the process. And developing that habit is so worth it because developing the habit is hard and it does take some time. But ultimately if you think about, you know, what's going to happen when you look back, you know, 1, 5, 10, 20 years down the line, this is such a powerful tool that at this point comes pretty easily. It's just, you know, part of what I do and it was, it's so worth taking that time to make this be a habit because you know, I fall to it or I, I use that skill so many times during the day, many times without even really realizing it. You know, I have my regular formal practice and this is just something I do during the day multiple times for a little help and self regulation.
[00:15:39] Speaker A: I love it. So I'm curious along the way, as somebody who's now an expert on mindfulness, how did that come in? I'm interested on how that blending happened in your professional and personal practice and professional development.
[00:15:59] Speaker B: Initially those two were really, really separate. And if you think about what mindfulness teaches, which is just allowing things to be how they are and biofeedback is all about making changes. Initially those two just seemed, you know, completely separate.
They, I would, I learned them in the same place, you know, during my training in graduate school at Cambridge Health alliance. You know, so, you know, oh, very cool. A lot of these were coming in in the same like, you know, sometimes like in the same day I'd be learning these, you know, do a little biofeedback practice, do a little mindfulness practice. But the teachings seem like those two are completely incompatible. Right. And if I talk to a mindfulness expert about biofeedback, I'd get a, you know, side, side glance like what are you talking about? No, you know, the two are completely incompatible.
But as I, and I initially really did see them as very separate and I'm going to practice this, I'm going to practice that and I'm going to teach this to My patients, I'm going to teach that to other kinds of patients. So this is going to be all very different and over time, and really not very much time. But you know, over time what dawned on me was how, just how incredibly compatible and how complementary the two are. You know, if I had a client struggling with biofeedback, you know, they were trying really hard, you know, they were putting so much effort into it, you know, they were.
And getting the opposite results. You know, kind of the harder they tried, you know, the worst the results were, well, why not, you know, bring in a little bit of, let's just see how it goes, you know, let's just let things be, you know, a little bit of mindfulness and lo and behold, you know, B feedback goes so much, so much more smoothly. And if I'm teaching mindfulness, you know, to somebody who is struggling with severe anxiety and panic, where the idea of accepting that is just totally unacceptable. Yeah, they're just, no, you know, don't want to talk to me about this. Like, I'm not willing, you know, to accept this. Bring in a little biofeedback and lo and behold, the intensity decreases and like, okay, now I'm willing, now I can let this be. So the two were just really blending, blending beautifully. And it's that interplay between letting things be and goal directed actions that are really are a part of both biofeedback and mindfulness would just have to be wise in where we apply choices and control, where we have control and where we just really need to let things be. And it applies to biofeedback and to mindfulness equally because certainly mindfulness is not doing nothing always, right. Mindfulness is choosing how we're going to respond and with what action.
And so is biofeedback.
[00:18:53] Speaker A: So as you were getting this like, mix, I love that that was happening in this, I love this conversation because I knew none of this ahead of time. So as all that was kind of mixing together oftentimes at the same day.
Like I'm curious, like, you know, in school, as you're learning all this, I can't see you hesitating too long to start a mindfulness practice and integrating some of this in. So I just kind of love to hear about, you know, the, the, the mindfulness, you know, part of this, this journey of how do you start to integrate that, that in, to, to your, your life and your practices.
[00:19:36] Speaker B: Mindfulness specifically. Yeah, yeah.
You know, it's just, I realize that it's just easier to live with mindfulness and I think Initially, I did set aside some time for formal mindfulness practice, but you know, I was doing biofeedback. You know, I was also, you know, learning mindfulness. So I think my formal practice actually often went more to biofeedback. And mindfulness was initially, you know, something that I just kind of integrated into, you know, how I practice biofeedback, how I live my daily life, how I responded to what was going on, you know, how I approached stressors and challenges and, you know, whatever was coming my way. So integrating that mindful attitude towards life was my initial approach.
And then setting, I started setting aside more time for formal meditation once I saw just how incredibly helpful a mindful way of life.
[00:20:46] Speaker A: Yes, it's that skill. I don't think we talk. I mean, you do, but like sometimes I think we just throw out the word mindful and we're, we're picturing someone sitting in meditation and that, that skill that at least for me I found, like the more I practiced intentionally, the more that that skill developed. So I, you know, yeah, the toaster oven doesn't work, but is it really worth throwing a fit about the toaster? Is there anything I can really, really do about it? You know, and it's just that mentality that has just been transformative for me over, over the decade and a half, two decades now that I've been serious about my practice. It's like, yeah, the things that were stupid triggers are no longer triggers and the things that are real triggers. We were talking about what's going on in the news right now, you know, I can at least acknowledge. But yeah, this is a trigger and I need to go sit and breathe a little bit and make sure I get my evening practice in tonight.
[00:21:51] Speaker B: Exactly. It lets you choose how to respond to that trigger instead of just reacting because, you know, we're not going to get rid of triggers. Some things, you know, like non working toaster ovens become just like, oh, well, you know what? That's, you know, I don't have to have my bagel toasted or I can go buy a new one at the.
[00:22:12] Speaker A: End of the world.
[00:22:13] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And some things will always be triggers as they should be. Right. You know, we certainly don't want to mindful, you know, mindful ourselves into not caring. Right. Mindfulness does not equal not caring at all. Like those. That's not at all what mindfulness is. You know, mindfulness is oftentimes caring very, very much and choosing how we're going to respond to that. Right. You know, is throwing a tantrum helpful? Well, no, not at.
So mindfulness helps us figure out how to respond to that. You know, if there is a trigger, you know, is it helpful to take it out on your spouse or on your dog or on your neighbor or on your coworkers? No, not helpful at all. So, you know, how do you respond to those triggers is what mindfulness is all about. How do we care and how do we care deeply and respond in helpful, healthy ways?
[00:23:11] Speaker A: I love it. So I'm curious of little things that maybe you have found along the way. Like, I. I know with the biofeedback practice and optimal zone, boy, if I just like, keep the posture that I had while I was watching TV and just start breathing, maybe I'm getting in the 60s. If I sit up and in the typical meditation position, all of a sudden I'm in the 90s. Like, you know, and I, I know some of that can be individual for people.
And so I'm just kind of curious as. Especially like, maybe with the, the fact now that you could do it at home, you could do it all the time. I'm just curious, is there, are there things that you have evolved on as far as your approach to mindfulness and biofeedback kind of in your own practice that you've been able to kind of hack along the way to get more benefit out of your practice?
[00:24:10] Speaker B: Well, certainly, you know, having a mindful approach to my biofeedback practice and a compassionate approach to my biofeedback practice is key because, you know, I still have a human mind and that mind wanders off and I might be doing my. My practice and suddenly start thinking about, oh, no, you know, I forgot about this meeting app tomorrow. I didn't prepare enough for it. Right. You know, things, you know, enter my mind, you know, what, what happened? Actually, just this. When I woke up a little bit earlier than I needed to and I decided I'm going to do some HRV practice just because I have time and why not? And a thought suddenly occurred to me. I have a biofeedback workshop coming up in a few weeks, and there is a detail that I had completely forgotten to take care of. Right. So this just like flew into my mind and of course, completely threw me out of optimal zone. And that's okay, right? That's normal. That happens. And I kind of make. Made a mental note, all right, I'll come back to that.
And you know, really focused on it's okay for me to be in wherever.
Percentage of low frequency I'm in right now. I Was for, for some moments I was in low, you know, optimal zone. Right. I was just not in it at all. And the approach is, that's okay, I'll come back to this. I'll, you know, I'll remember. Let's, let's refocus. And just bringing myself into that moment with kindness, with compassion towards myself and you know, not beating up on myself or forgetting this thing, that's pretty important. Also not beating up, beating up on myself or getting kicked out of optimal zone. Right. You know, that's okay, but just kind of, you know, refocusing and allowing my nervous system to settle and settle back in, you know, allowing optimal zone to happen kind of on its own. Because if I tried, you know, if I put effort into it, I wouldn't have gotten there. Like, you know, again, that's that, you know, paradox of mindfulness. Right. You know, the more you try, the worse it gets. So I really just needed to let my nervous system settle in and get back because I knew it could. And that's exactly what happened.
[00:26:29] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's so funny. I almost like. Because I'm still not in the place where I can just clear my head, like, I, I would love to get there at some point. I just don't, I don't know how I like. But it's almost like I need to take out the trash, like mentally. Like, like, yeah, I catch myself, I come back to the breathing. But it's almost like the thing I catch just needed to like get out so I could get back to my reading. It's like. And occasionally like you had this morning, there's a nugget that pops up like, oh, I was throwing out something of value in this trash. And like, okay, I should make a note of that like you did and come back to it because that was something important. But it's just such an interesting experience to pay attention to those, those thoughts in that non judgmental way.
Yeah, there it is. Okay, I need to throw that out. No, that, that's not serving me any good right now. Let's go back to the focus on the breath. But it's, it's a very. The mind's an interesting thing.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Yes. And it's fascinating to track it, you know. You know, this, a thought coming into my mind, you know, throws my, you know, cardiovascular system, you know, out of whack. Right. You know, that's the, that's a pretty incredible mind, mind body connection. And I absolutely love being able to see it so clearly, you know, with HRV and You know, with the optimal slider, you know, that feedback is immediate.
You know, when we're focused and present, you know, everything is nice and green and, you know, random thoughts entering your mind will. You'll see an immediate effect on what's happening. And that in itself can, you know, throw you off a little bit. But, you know, it's also just really valuable feedback. Not because you're doing something wrong, it's not pointing out mistakes or failures, but it's really just telling you this is what your mind and body are doing in this moment and how amazing that we have the ability to track it with that much precision moment to moment.
[00:28:40] Speaker A: You may be able to do this because of the. But especially, I think we've had the slider out now for maybe coming towards a year, but not, not that long. This has been integrated into, to my practice in that way. It's like, like, okay, I, I see myself go out since we roll on that 60 seconds. You know, sometimes, you know, the, the thought or the sneeze or whatever it might be, I, I go like, you see that drop and then it's like, okay to watch it go back because you're kind of working that sneeze or that thought out of the 60 seconds. But then just that the kind of the hyper focus. I'm not saying I'm, I'm necessarily working, but training's a great word because it's like, okay, yeah, I know the breath that gets me in optimal zone. I know the breath that keeps me in optimal zone. I, you know, so I can apply all those skills to get that autonomic nervous system regulation that without it like, you know, just totally different. And now I'm learning to apply it in other situations without having to pull out my phone. But it's. That training aspect of. Is just so amazing.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: I think getting to know that how my nervous system works, you know, how my mind works in that, you know, year or so that, you know, the slider has been out.
I've learned a ton about my own body, about my own mind, you know, so, you know so much more than I was able to learn in the previous couple of decades where, you know, I. Most of my biofeedback practice up until then was not done with actual feedback. Right. I didn't hook myself up every single day. You know, my equipment lived in the office. Even if I had it at home, you know, it's still, it's, you know, it's somewhat cumbersome. It wasn't something I did every day. I did my Practice every day, but most of the time it wasn't monitored practice. And you know, now having being able to so easily just track what happens.
I thought I knew my nervous system pretty well, but I've learned so much more about it. And it really helps in the moment, right?
[00:30:52] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:30:52] Speaker B: In moments when I am not hooked up to any equipment, just having that knowledge, understanding how I respond to things and what's helpful and what's not, having that feedback during practice times, I now know how to use those skills in challenging moments. And again, that's been a game changer. Changer.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: I love it. So let's start to wrap up on this to walk me through what a day, what a week looks like with your biofeedback mindfulness practice. Well, what. What have you sort of evolved into with all this training and knowledge you've gotten over the years?
[00:31:30] Speaker B: Well, I am. One thing I'm guilty of is not having a consistent time for my practice as much as I encourage my clients to find one. And I did back when I was first establishing your practice. I did, you know, back then. You know, these days my schedule is just a little too unpredictable. And, you know, my. None of my days are consistent. I don't do the same thing, you know, at the same time each day. That just pretty much never happens.
So I have to adjust my practice to that. You know, some days I wake up a little early in the morning and I have time. All right, this is a great time for my practice. You know, other times, you know, it's something that I do before, you know, before going to sleep. You know, as far as my four formal practice goes, some days are incredibly busy and I have to, you know, kind of make a mental note, okay, this is where I can fit this in.
There are days when it doesn't happen. You know, just.
Again, in the full disclosure, there are absolutely days when I don't have time for. For all practice. But I do get, you know, five or six of those a week mo most weeks.
And. And then, you know, some days I have my full 20 minutes. Some days I only have time for five. And five minutes is certainly better than no minutes. Right? I always make time for something. But some days, you know, life is such that five minutes is all that happens. And that's. That's okay. I also just do little practices throughout the day, you know, in between meetings, you know, if I have a couple of minutes, especially if one of those meetings is particularly challenging. I know this is just something that helps me transition from one to the other. You know, if I've had a really long day, I am in transition, transitioning to a really long work day and then transitioning to home day. Right. Or, you know, home evening, just having a, a few breaths or, you know, a couple of minutes. If I'm in my, you know, Boston office like I am now, you know, on my drive home, it's a great time to do a little bit of breathing. But some days when I work from home, you know, my commute from my office to the kitchen, in those days, it's particularly important for me to take a few minutes just to let my nervous system settle and let go of what was happening during the day and be as present as possible for my family.
So at this point, my habit is to just kind of figure out where is this going to fit day to day.
And my fallback is always, if my day is such that I did not have time for formal practice at all, all, there's always at least five minutes before bedtime. Yeah. Usually more. But, you know, that's always my fallback. If I didn't have time, this is, this is where the practice will always fit in.
[00:34:25] Speaker A: I love that and I love that I love these conversations because, you know, Dr. Gertz was kind of the same way. It's like, you know, I think a lot of times, because we are so invested in getting people to practice that, that, you know, just the understanding that, hey, it's not easy sometimes to find that, you know, time. I, I, I definitely respect that with children in the house. Like, I don't have children in the house. So, you know, that, that schedule is, has a lot more flexibility to it.
You know, as you go to your daughter's gymnastic meets around the country, all those, all those things that are getting kids ready for school, you know, I kind of got to get my hair fixed and, and, you know, my routine takes about three minutes in the morning. So, you know, it gives me that flexibility, but just trying to find really meaningful ways to get it in there, whether it's five minutes at night or there is 20 minutes on a Saturday where you do have that time to yourself, where you can do that deeper practice and be kind in between what all those look like for you, so.
[00:35:33] Speaker B: Exactly. I think that kind approach is, is key. Right. Because, you know, if you don't have time for practice and you're beating up on yourself for it, well, that's certainly not going to help your HRV or your nervous system. Right. That's, yeah. Rather than spending that time beating up on yourself, do three minutes of hiv.
[00:35:53] Speaker A: There you go. There's some good time to do it. If you, if you're feeling shameful, take, take that breath so well, my friend, I appreciate you. I've been looking so forward to this conversation and just learning more about your journey has been a pleasure and a joy as well. So as always, thanks for being such a good guest and supporter of the show. And yeah, I'm excited to see where this takes us because that optimal zone slider has been such a big impact, I know for a lot of people and it's just fun to see where we can utilize this science to really give people that tool again. Whether it's three minutes, whether it's 30 minutes of practice a day and giving that little bit of insight which can be life changing is just so cool. So I appreciate taking this journey with you.
[00:36:45] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks Matt. Always a pleasure to talk with you.
[00:36:47] Speaker A: As always. You can find show notes at optimalhrv. Com and we will see you next week.
