[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness.
Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us out at optimalhrv.com Please enjoy the show.
Welcome friends to Heart Rate Variability Podcast. I am back here with star guest, good friend of the show, good friend of mine, Dr. Ina Hazad to talk about some improvements to the optimal HRV app around biofeedback. But even if you're not using the optimal app, stay tuned because I got my perception of some things challenged by are current. I've got questions around my own practice and I think regarding on what you're using for HRV biofeedback. This will be as it always is with Ina, a great discussion. So Ina, welcome back to the show.
So always good to have you. I know you're getting a lot of snow there in Boston, so glad you are somewhat warm on this cold day.
[00:01:23] Speaker B: Yeah, thanks so much Matt. Always a pleasure to chat with you.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: Awesome.
So the new we've got a couple new features out with RHRV biofeedback and mindfulness.
The one I want to, well, there's a couple things kind of to talk about today because one of the requests that you had was to do the biofeedback without the heart rate monitor, which I could understand that, honestly, sometimes I think that's just distracting.
But to continue to give low frequency optimal zone data, but to take the breathing pacer away as an option, it's still automatically on. And I kind of felt like you were taking away HRV biofeedback like resonance frequency breathing, breathing at for me, 4.5 breaths per minute, getting my good inhale, exhale, getting my pause number just right and I took it away.
And I'll be a little honest, I'm like I gotta talk to you about this because I'm not sure what to do, but I'm finding it fascinating. So let me start out just by asking, why did you have that request? In the most recent version release we've had to have the option of taking away the breathing pacer. I just love to let you dive into your thinking around this.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Sure.
Well, a couple of reasons.
One just more of a, I guess theoretical one.
If we think about what actual biofeedback is, you know, we're supposed to be guiding what we do based on our physiological signals, not an outside pacer.
So technically speaking, true biofeedback is without the pacer, like you know, where we're being guided by the physiological readings from our nervous system, meaning either the heart rate tracing or the optimal zone, which is the low frequency power. So being guided by what the body is actually doing and then adjusting our breathing based on that data. That is true biofeedback. When you have the pacer to guide you, it's a biofeedback with a crutch.
Nothing wrong with it. It's great, it's amazing to have it.
But you know, if we go strictly what with what BI feedback is, we need to, we need to be able to do without, without the outside guidance.
But in more practical terms, right. You know this, I'm really not that much of a stickler for technicalities and theories.
In more practical terms, what I want people to be able to do is get into their breathing when they don't have access to their phone.
Because obviously that's going to happen. You know, you are in a meeting and you find yourself, you know, getting a little over activated, you know, maybe finding, you know, hard to focus, maybe feeling a little agitated, overwhelmed, et cetera. What do you do?
HRV breathing. Resonance frequency breathing is extremely helpful as a response to that situation.
But if you have never done your breathing without that pacer, what are you like, how are you going to get in there? Especially under stressful situations. Right. You know, if all your practice is with a PACER when things are safe and comfortable and then suddenly you're finding yourself when it's not as comfortable and you don't maybe feel completely safe, not from a physical standpoint, but emotionally.
So it's a challenge. And you know, figuring out how to do your breathing A without the PACER and B, when you are stressed is difficult. So I want people to be able to practice that specific for the situations when they don't have access to their phone.
[00:05:27] Speaker A: I love that. So let's say we have the options on of, you know, the optimal zone and for those not using the app, really a metric of low frequency and the percentage of time you're spending in that ideal HRV training rate during biofeedback and you've got the heart rate monitor going where you get those up and nice, nice, nice curves.
Does.
Okay. I find it, I'll just full disclosure, more difficult to stay in what we call optimal zone without the pacer. I would say it would be like two crutches, maybe even like I think like, I could just kick back with the pacer and kind of relax and maybe even throw it on vibrate. So it's going on. You gave me permission. I kind of, I've run with it to watch television while I do my biofeedback. If I do some focus training outside of that.
So I'm doing all this and I find like, I'm paying a lot more attention to the heart rate, but I don't know, should I exit? Like, is there anything there that should help guide my breathing at all with that? Because I find it like I kind of using that as a pacer a little bit, but I don't know if I'm. I'm doing that right either.
[00:06:53] Speaker B: Yeah.
So excellent question.
I wouldn't expect people to just be able to turn off the pacer and do as well as they do without the pacer. Right.
[00:07:03] Speaker A: I'm proof of that. Yeah.
[00:07:06] Speaker B: So am I. Doesn't. It just doesn't work that way. Yes.
So I, I do have a. Some suggestions for how to improve your optimal zone and. Or low frequency power without.
Without the pacer. So basically, you know, how do you use the pacer in the transition to not needing. Needing the pacer?
[00:07:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:07:32] Speaker B: When you feel.
So first of all, let me preface what I'm about to say is with, it is absolutely fine to spend, you know, quite a bit of your practice, you know, in that, you know, kick back, relax, do HRV breathing. It's nice and comfortable and you know, you're relaxing on the couch and you use a pacer visually with the vibration, with sound, doesn't matter. Great. You should do that because that is. It is the best way to be precise in your breathing is to use the pacer. Of course. Right.
But then, you know, when that feels comfortable and you would like to find a way to not be dependent on, on the pacer. Right. Use it sometimes, but not have to use it all the time.
So this is where you put away the TV and all the distractions and all that. Right. And really give yourself some mindful time.
Use the pacer. But what you're doing at that moment is really paying attention to how are you feeling, what are you noticing as you're using the pacer. And there's a number of things you can pay attention to. You can pay attention to the heart rate display.
Right. You know, with the apps, including optimal, we have to be careful because there is a bit of a delay. Right. There is a little bit of a lag with most apps, so that feedback is not as immediate as it, as it might be, which is at some point the technology will catch up. Right? We'll get there.
So it, that might be why it's hard to follow your heart rate as a pacer, because it's actually like a tiny bit off.
So with apps, I probably, I would say maybe don't.
You can still see that display and watch it and kind of watch the nice waves. It's still good feedback.
But I, it's not going to be as, as good as a pacer. We, we could learn to follow our heart rate as a pacer. You can actually do that, but not when there is a delay.
So my suggestion is just start with seeing what you notice internally. What does your heart rate feel like, what does your body feel like, what does your breath feel like? Just really start noticing as opposed to going up, down, up, down, in, out, in, out that we do with a pacer. Pay attention to the internal sensations.
Then figure out what's going to be an internal cue that is available to you at all times where you don't have to be dependent on the phone pacer. The easiest thing is to count, right?
So what you can just do do is use a count that's going to fall, that's going to be similar to your resonance frequency breathing rate and then adjust it to the pacer while using the pacer.
So the simplest example is if you're breathing at six breaths per minute, that's four seconds in, six seconds out, and you can count four in, six out and time it to approximately, you know, a second for each count. You know, also accounting for the little paus.
And just do that and use your counting together with the pacer and then maybe turn the pacer off or put the phone away. Use your pacer as a cue, see how you do. Sorry, use your internal pacer as a cue, use accounting and then see how you do and use that as feedback.
You can you continue watching the screen without the pacer. You'll get the heart rate display, you'll get the low frequency or the optimal zone, that true physiological feedback. It will tell you how well are you doing and then you can bring the actual pacer back and try again to readjust and fine tune because of course initially you'll go a little too fast or a little too slow.
But using the physiological feedback, you learn how to adjust that internal cue.
So counting, it's still a pacer, it's just internal. So I guess technically it's still a little bit of a crutch, but it's Always available. So I see no problem with just using that. Great. Right.
So some people don't like counting. They prefer having phrases that will kind of pay clo mantras, phrases.
Those can be often very interesting and creative. You know, I once worked with somebody who used the phrase Encyclopedia Britannica and encyclopedia for the breath in Britannica for the breath out.
And she sings on that in just the right way to work. It sounds like encyclopedia is too long a word and Britannica is too short for the exhalation. Right. But she sings song that exactly like. And it was super helpful.
So people come up with really interesting ways to pace themselves. Be creative. You'll need to play around, make sure it works with. With the pace of your breathing. But the only words I would say stay away from are things like breathe, relax, calm down.
Things that actually end up putting pressure on you.
[00:12:45] Speaker A: I like to throw a meta statement in, you know, if you. If you can work some positive affirmation or something. I had nothing wrong with Encyclopedia Britannica, but it just seems like a. A nice space to, you know, offer loving kindness to. To the world.
[00:13:01] Speaker B: Absolutely. I think we need a little bit.
[00:13:03] Speaker A: Of that right now.
[00:13:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, yes. So we so do. Yes.
You know, may I be safe and free from harm. You can sing song that in just the right way. Right?
Yeah, absolutely. May have peace and comfort. May you have peace and comfort. All of that is wonderful. You can also do simpler, like just words like blue ocean, you know? Yeah, do something like that.
So figure out what works for you.
And the idea is just to use that phrase mantra, you know, meta counting. They use it together with the pacer on the screen, then put the screen away, you know, get feedback from the app that's telling you how well you're doing, adjust a little bit, you know, use the pacer again, put it away again, you know, et cetera, et cetera. And then once you feel like you've got it, you use some of your practice time to continue maintaining your ability to breathe at your resonance frequency without the pacer. But it doesn't have to be every day. It doesn't to be the whole practice. You can maybe start out, like, you know, start your biofeedback session with, like, first three or four minutes without the pacer, and then you bring the pacer back if you want, or the other way around, you start with a pacer. And then once you feel like, okay, I'm in the zone, I've got it. I'm gonna, you know, turn the pacer off and Continue on my own without it.
Or you can do one session without the pacer and the next session with the pacer. Lots of ways to do this. You just want to spend some of the time without the pacer just to maintain that skill. Right. So that when you find yourself needing it and not being able to use the phone, you have it.
[00:14:46] Speaker A: So I'm curious because on one hand of course we had a new feature so I just obsessively started to experiment with it and I sort of got into it without necessarily the goal just because we have a new feature. So I gotta play around with it of sort of thinking that the goal was I'm gonna do resonance frequency breathing. So again, 4.5 breaths per minute for me without a visual stimulus that I'm. I'm going to count it. So I went into it.
I'm going to stay in optimal zone as long as I can somehow.
And it was me well enough to know. Yeah, that's kind of what Matt would probably do without having this conversation with you.
So one, I guess one question I have is, let me just start there, then I'll ask my follow up.
Is the ultimate goal really of turning the breathing pacer off, really just to replicate the breathing as a tool that you can use without having looking at your phone like is that really the goal of being able to turn the pacer off in your thinking?
[00:16:11] Speaker B: Well, yes. What you're doing is you are increasing internal awareness.
[00:16:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: Right. Which goes a very long way for lots of things. Right. So even just you can do this just for the purpose of increasing internal awareness which many of us can use. Right. You know that the increased self awareness is always a good thing and then it will also give you the ability to use your breathing when the pacer is not available. It's both.
[00:16:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I. So the I guess secondary pieces because I missed the primary goal of just jumping right in when I jumped right in into it.
It's interesting trying to stay low frequency dominant just on your own. Like I felt like I was kind of wondering out and again my morning, just so you know, I do, you know, 16 minutes but I kind of got everything timed out with my meta and my prayer and my. So like if I turn the pacer off, God knows what's going to happen to that, that practice. So I kind of look at that as my structured practice.
And then my evening where I do get 40 minutes a day and so I'll brag a little bit about that evening is just I'm relaxed, I'm kind of free forming it. So in the evening, what I really found, like I can turn, I did this last night, just turn my pace around, vibrate, look down at my phone every once in a while. I think I got like an 89% over 25 minutes in optimal zone brag while watching astronomical documentaries on YouTube. So I, I. But I could kind of look away from it and I knew I was there as I kind of tried was I turned the pacer off.
I almost can't watch my nerdy documentaries while doing the practice. I almost have to. Like, it is almost a workout. Like I've shared with our audience. Like the lock, the lion's breath. And I do muscle contractions on the inhale. Like I call them my shaffer toe extensions. Where Fred taught me, you bring the toes back and I'm doing pelvic floor contractions and my wife's looking at me and I've got like facial expressions going on. Like, it is fascinating.
Like, and you mentioned this, like the level of focus in I, I would call it introspection, that I'm trying to use my whole mind, my whole body to hang on to that optimal zone and seeing it slip from high 80s to, you know, in the 60s, which still isn't terrible, but I might be doing something good there like that. That's the whole thing of trying to figure out is like, am I just like going to give myself a hernia because I'm trying to stay in optimal zone or pass out because I'm like.
And like I can find like really strong long exhales can get me back up there. But like it's opened up this whole new realm of experiment for folks. And I don't know if you would ever suggest it or if there's like go freestyle on it for some reason whatsoever, but I just love to get a little feedback on the mat version of what I'm trying to do with this new function.
[00:19:48] Speaker B: I totally commend the experimentation.
You're learning so much about yourself and about biofeedback and resonance frequency breathing and optimal zone. Right. I love it.
I think I just have to temper your expectations with the amount of effort that you're putting into it. You are not going to be an optimal zone as much.
The, the optimal zone is all about allowing your breath to happen. Right. And allowing your nervous system to kind of rest in that optimal, optimal state where the vagus and the baroreflex are working together in that ideal way and effort is going to kick you out of that.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's awesome. You learn a lot, right? There's absolutely a place for it.
And I would say that it's actually great to experiment in this way of put some effort into it, see what happens, and see if you can let go of the effort and get back into the optimal zone, but without the effort, without the trying. That's the paradox that mindfulness paradox is the more we try to get into the optimal zone, the more.
The more we fail and the more we get kicked out. You know, we have to allow ourselves to. To get there. So that in itself is huge practice because, you know, in real life, it's so often that we have to put effort into something, and then we know we only have a little bit of time to recover before something else. So we have to learn how to let go of that effort and get into our optimal zone for recovery before moving on to something else. So it is an incredibly useful practice. I love that you're doing it.
I just don't think you can both put effort into it and, like, give yourself a hernia, which I hope you don't, and stay in the optimal zone.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: And it's a really fascinating thing because I find.
And again, this is a lot of the end of one or the. The mat experience of this is that whereas, again, if I just have the vibrations going on for the inhale or exhale, I can sort of relax and, you know, kind of dual focus on.
I learned about exoplanets last night. I mean, this is what I'm doing during my. My evening practice, you know, so I'm nerding out about, you know, why Pluto is in a planet and these other exoplanets. But I'm inhale and exhale, resonance frequency. And again, I get 90% on there. Maybe if I focus for 25 minutes, I probably get so bored and I drive myself. Myself crazy. So then the distraction probably helps. The interesting thing with the. The optimal zone without the pacer is like, I've got a.
I feel like I do have to work in some ways. And I totally appreciate what you're saying and want to just say, you're right.
And it's like, if I'm starting to think too much about this planet, we found that's in the shape of, like, a green bean out there, which I obsessed about. Like, all of a sudden, like, I'm way out. I'm in, like, drop to low degrees, like 20% low frequency. And maybe my natural breath isn't going off, but if I'm not kind of focused on the, the screen and I keep it there by slight adjustments and a hernia is an exaggeration but I am doing a lot to keep there that it swings out dramatically fairly quickly and I just find that, that fascinating. Whereas like breathing with the pacer, I might dip into medium sometimes but then I'm like, okay, kick back in, get, get better aligned. So it's been a fascinating experience with, you know, my wife. Just, I'm annoying the hell out of her because, but usually she's in bed by the time I do my exoplanet nerding out on.
I just find it's a fascinating thing. Maybe not do it for 25 minutes but get play around with it because it, it is, it's a fast. It's a whole different experience of biofeedback in my opinion.
[00:24:05] Speaker B: Absolutely. So you bring up a really, really important point. Especially when you're first learning how to breathe without the pacer.
It is going to take a bit of effort and it's gonna, you're not going to be in the optimal zone right away. Right.
Remember how I first convinced you not to watch TV while doing your breathing?
If I remember correctly, you saw that your optimal zone and your low frequency, your results were better if you were mindfully paying attention.
And then because you've been doing so much practice, you can now watch your exoplanets and stay in the optimal zone because you learn how to manage your attention.
So yay. Right? That's an amazing skill and it took you a little while to get there and you will be able to do the breathing without the pacer while watching, you know, green bean planets soon enough. It's just going to take a little bit of time and initially, so initially I would say just give yourself some mindful time to pay attention, you know, get that awareness going.
You're, you know, your mind can't actually like multitask. Right. You know, our brains are not capable of that. They have, they're switching and when one of the tasks is not very familiar, it's just really easy to get off track and get over activated and get out of zone, etc. Etc. Right.
So once you feel like, you know, you're staying in the optimal zone, like I would say 85 or high or to plino. Yeah, 85% of the time or, or more like in your 10 minute practice without the pacer, then you know, you can absolutely start adding, you know, watching a documentary. Again, I wouldn't do this all the time, but for the sake of training your brain and Training that attention.
Then start adding the documentaries and you'll notice that it's going to be easier at first. It's still going to be your optimalism will drop, but with a bit of time, it's going to climb back up, you know, without, without intending to brag, you know, you know, do my breathing and under all sorts of circumstances and, you know, end up, you know, fairly, with fairly high optimal zone scores. But it took me a long time to be able to do that. Right. It's not something that you could do right away. And most people cannot do this right away. Right. It's just, it's just a matter of, of practice. So you have a new challenge for yourself.
[00:26:42] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. So there, there's, this brings up, you know, another I, I think key point. I think, you know, as you and I both know, getting people to practice is difficult. You know, we, you know, we're always trying to get people to get up to that 20 minutes a day sort of level.
I, I'm curious, you know, and again, just for the listeners out there, I do 16 minutes of highly focused practice every morning, right. Where I don't have any distractions.
I'm just kicking butt in optimal zone. So this is, I was doing 10 minutes of focus practice in the evening and then I realized this is kind of my final question to you here, is that, okay, 10 minutes of focus practice. I'm assuming that the focus of that practice has some benefit as well. I'm doing my meta statements, prayers, other things, spiritual connections, this, that and the other, because I gotta be doing something, otherwise I'll just be thinking about things that aren't very mindful.
If I am spending, let's say, while I watch my nerdy documentaries, if I'm getting 20 minutes in optimal zone, dual focused. So I'm not practicing mindfulness by any stretch of the imagination, but I get 20 minutes in optimal zone versus 10 minutes of focus practice in optimal zone.
Are those kind of equal? Would you say, like, hey, 20 minutes is better than 10 minutes? I just would like to say, let's say I'm a patient, a client of yours, like, hey, I'm in optimal zone for 20 minutes even though I'm watching Netflix shows or something like that. I'm just curious what you would tell somebody like a yahoo like me who is trying to both watch nerdy documentaries and practice biofeedback at the same time.
[00:28:45] Speaker B: Hey, you know, that's what it's going to take for you to do 20 minute practice. Totally go for it.
I think there Is I don't know if you can say that one's better than the other.
Most importantly is what are you going to do? Right. That's the ultimate question.
If you're going to do 20 minutes while watching documentaries and you stay in the optimal zone for great majority of that 20 minutes, your nervous system is getting a good workout. So I'm happy with that.
Is there also a benefit to doing a 10 minute more mindful practice where you stay in the optimal zone and you know, your mind is truly present, you are getting, you are going to get something extra from that.
The I would also say, you know, for the sake of our listeners who are going to go, okay, 20 minutes while watching documentaries for most people that's going to take a lot of practice to be able to get there. Right. Matt, I know you've been, this has been something you're working on for a long time and it's going to take a while. You know, you're watching the documentary but you're really like in order for you to be in the optimal zone, it's not just the mechanics of breathing. Yes, the rate of breathing matters a whole lot but your, the way your mind is activated has to be in that optimal zone as well. So you figured out how to do that while watching those documentaries. I imagine if you put on the news, you may not be.
[00:30:09] Speaker A: That actually is a good, that'd be a good thing to test out.
[00:30:13] Speaker B: Let me know what happens.
Give it a try.
So it's, it is a slightly different state.
Right. And I, I just don't want to give the impression that it's just the mechanics of breathing because it's not as many people notice they, they're paying attention to the breathing. You know, the breathing is just the right rate. The mind wanders off and like wait a second, what happened to my optimal zone? Right, right. So while the breathing matters, it's, it's abso necessary. It's not, it's also not sufficient.
So ultimately whatever is going to get you to do the practice is what's most important.
But I just don't want people to feel like, okay, you know. Right. Right off the bat I can do my 20 minutes while watching, you know, TV or like, you know, action movies or something. Yeah. And stay in the optimal zone.
[00:31:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Just as a note, I'm assuming you would agree with me if you don't. Please. Is one of the things I really believe we're seen with our users and we try to onboard people with this in mind is pace breathing especially pace Breathing that gets you into low frequency HRV is somewhat of a skill set. So, you know, people that jump right in and take their residence frequency breathing day one, the first thing they do in the app and they've never done paced breathing that I get a lot of people reaching out to me is that, you know, is this set forever? And according to research, it's kind of set forever once you reach adulthood. No, I think we're questioning that a little bit. But, like, I'm really encouraging. If you're not doing a lot of pace breathing before you start this, retake it, you know, five weeks, six weeks out. And people often see that their breaths per minute might, you know, measure up to two breaths per minute. I was talking to somebody today, but usually it's more like a half a breath or one breath per minute with that. And I just think that, hey, if you're new to paced breathing, yeah, do your focus practice. But it doesn't take a whole lot to turn the vibration on and just practice paced breathing, maybe even not track an optimal zone to get some experience with this. And then you're building a skill set that will serve you well whether or not you nerd out and try to get to that magical 41 minutes that I have found a way to cheat and get to or not. But that skill that you're building, in addition to at least even five minutes of a focus practice, I think can help get people to some of the outcomes that we see with HRV biofeedback.
[00:32:48] Speaker B: Absolutely. Totally agree with you.
[00:32:50] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, you know, thank you so much. I really tried not to make this about a personal consultation with me, but I've had some users reach out and get really excited about this feature.
And so I just was really excited to have this conversation with you. And again, you can try out the optimal HRV app for free. We've got trial out there if you want to play around just with some of the things that we're talking about.
Feel free to check that out as well. Show notes and other podcast
[email protected] and as always, we'll see you soon. Thanks so much, Ina.
[00:33:26] Speaker B: Thank you, Matt.
