[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and optimal HRV. Check us
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Welcome, friends, to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. I am back today with a previous guest, and if you did not listen to his first episode, you might want to just hit pause and go back there, because Doctor Patrick Stephan is one of the giants in the field of HRV right now. Not only is his work so impactful, we'll talk about one of his most recent efforts here. But if you've been listening to the podcast, you've seen a lot of his students. And Doctor Stefan, I know not all those episodes have hit live yet, but not only do I respect you, I just know that your students I honor, respect you.
There's a joy with your students around this topic. So whatever you do at BYU, my friend, is contagious.
[00:01:27] Speaker B: I have great students. I'm very lucky.
[00:01:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm glad to catch a little bit of that bug vicariously from what you all are doing. So before we dive into this exciting announcement about a new book that's coming out just really quick. For those that might not have seen the first or heard the first episode, just a quick introduction of yourself and your work.
[00:01:51] Speaker B: My name is Patrick Steffen. I'm a professor of clinical psychology at Brigham Young University.
My lab focuses on integrating biofeedback into psychotherapy.
Stress is a huge problem in the world, and after Covid, it still hasn't gotten any better. It was really bad with COVID still see high stress levels. And interestingly, you'll see that a lot of correlational studies are showing that people with low HRV that aren't doing very well in terms of self regulatory capacity don't do well in psychotherapy. So these aren't controlled studies, but correlationally, they're showing that if you start psychotherapy with low HRV, you're probably not going to do as well in terms of depression treatment, anxiety treatment. So the focus of the BYU stress lab is looking at, well, how can we maybe before they start therapy, put them through like five weeks of HRV biofeedback or maybe integrated into the psychotherapy itself, so help people build their self regulatory capacity, build their ability to cope with stress better and then see if that helps them to engage more than psychotherapy regarding their depression and their anxiety and have better success.
[00:03:09] Speaker A: And I love that because that is what is with my background as a therapist. What really drew me to initially, HRV is a metric of tracking success with HRV biofeedback, as the podcast listeners will have heard me say many times, pretty much the greatest homework that you could give someone in psychotherapy is to do 20 or 40 minutes or whatever they can tolerate of getting their residence frequency, breathing and doing that. I'm helping through talk therapy or other therapeutic methods, hopefully help to heal, strengthen that nervous system. And then their daily practice just is reinforcing that.
I can't think of anything better for most people. So that really exciting.
[00:04:02] Speaker B: Yeah. And it's interesting, for like thousands of years, a lot of different religious traditions, other traditions have emphasized the breath or breath work as a way of part of meditation or centering or becoming more in the moment, so to speak. But also, you know, again, with the idea of self regulatory capacity, the ability to manage our stress better, have good health in general, it just makes sense.
[00:04:31] Speaker A: And, you know, to get it as an affordable, simple tool, sure. I don't know. It's an exciting time to be doing this work. And like I said, I love how you and your students are, you know, pushing this forward in very innovative ways. So one of which, let's get to it. And I've got it up right now on Amazon for preorder. So I will give. I haven't seen it yet. I was trying to manipulate a copy. And I know, you know, we're, hopefully.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: There'Ll be a digital version. Haven't seen that yet.
[00:05:07] Speaker A: I know, I know. I was worried. I was trying to work my way, weasel my way into early copy. But when I saw the title of your new book, and with Doctor Moss as editors for the book integrating psychotherapy and psychophysiology theory, assessment and practice, I think you probably just gave a good introduction to it.
But when you took on this, when you were talking to another friend of the show, Doctor Donald Mosse, what brought this on? What sparked this idea again, another giant in our field?
What was the conversation like to say, hey, we should write a book about this.
[00:05:56] Speaker B: It's an up and coming area. There's lots of people outside of biofeedback, as well as within biofeedback that are interested in this topic. That's why we said psychophysiology more general than biofeed. Cause there's lots of different people with these types of interests. But there's never been anything published on it yet as far as like a big piece.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:14] Speaker B: We wanna do this edited book and invite a lot of people that are interested in HRV, interested in psychophysiology, interested in biofeedback. So if people can have, like the current state of the field, so to speak, this is where people are at? This is the current research.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Yep. And I wonder how when you were, when you're constructing this book, I'm looking here at the three parts of it here. I'd love for you to think about someone like a young Matt out there, a new therapist, interested in technology loving data. Like, what are some of the, you know, things that throughout the process of writing the book, what are some, when we talk about integrating this in, what are some of the things that sort of came out of this process? I know as an editor, I'm assuming that different people wrote different chapters probably throughout the book. So as you're looking at different chapters, what are some, you know, and different contributions to the book, what are some maybe best practices for you that kind of rose to the top of seeing what some of the really sharp thinkers in this arena are contributing?
[00:07:33] Speaker B: Yeah, we started off with Paul Gilbert from England. He's the one that created compassion focused therapy, and he's very interested in HRV, like you were saying in therapy, to use that as a measure to track over time. So he's not a psychophysiologist himself per se, but he's very cognizant, very aware of that. HIV is important to measure. And part of his thinking in developing his approach to compassion focused therapy is, let's think about HRV. He brings things like porges or other people thinking about theoretically, why would we expect psychotherapy to impact HRV? So the very first chapter, very theoretical, he contributes two chapters, one in assessment, one in therapy. The first one, assessment is like, why would we, from the compassion focused therapy perspective, expect to have these psychophysiological HRV changes as a function of engaging? We actually have one publication that I did here at BYU with Gary Burlingame after we met with Paul Gilbert, and we looked at group focused, compassion focused therapy and found that those, that the more they engaged in that therapy, the better their HRV at the end. So it was led to positive outcomes. That was one of the therapy versions of looking at how we might integrate psychotherapy and psychophysiology. So we love Paul Gilbert. Been working with him for a while. He's a great guy. I've been there a few times to England to do the CFT training, I find that really a really helpful way to think about therapy. Like, I'll let you know. Today, it seems like these, today, most people are kind of an integrative. It's like, well, I like CBT. I like some act, some CFT. And so there's some really key aspects to this, especially in a college student environment. College students can be very perfectionistic and beat themselves up a lot. And so compassion focused therapy with college students is learning, you know, this kind of being compassionate with oneself and not beating oneself up. It's like, you know, if I don't berate myself, how am I going to get better attitude? You know, like, I've got to be harsh or I'll never get any better, right? Maybe there's a different way that we could go about that to achieve without beating yourself up.
[00:09:59] Speaker A: And I love, and we've explored a little bit of this on episodes throughout the years of, you know, having experts come on on, you know, and, you know, I know, compassion, self compassion, kind of a lot of overlap there, at least. But like, this kind of a different stream of research and maybe coming from like the same, you know, central core, but like, the compassion and the mindfulness research, you know, while probably sharing some things, especially when we think about self compassion, you know, guided meditation sort of stuff, the neffs and the others are doing, like, really fascinating, I think, really powerful area of evolving research, obviously seemingly based out of thousands of years of spiritual traditions, but still really powerful stuff coming out there with Paul Gilbert.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: He's very much into the mindfulness aspect that's built into compassion focused framework. And we know with the acceptance and commitment therapy, that's also built into the hexaflex model of a mindful approach to things. And then there's also the. What is that called? Mindfulness based cognitive therapy. So I think it's pretty much across most modalities of therapy these days. Everyone brings in some type of mindfulness piece to that.
[00:11:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I would love to talk a little bit about with the second part of the book on the assessment piece of this, because, again, as I mentioned, this was sort of my initial draw to heart rate variability in integrating it into programming and therapy, whether that may be a housing program, whether it might be traditional psychotherapy, whatever it might be. Because one of the things that just struck me is if we're effective in our interventions, we should be seeing improvements, increases, and things like RMSSD.
And so for me, I've just been obsessed with getting a baseline and then measuring progress over time because you kind of mentioned we have. I don't know. I don't know if anybody's ever counted how many best practice therapy modalities are out there now. It's well, surpassed my ability to keep track, and I'm talking about things with research behind them. Like, it's not just something somebody dreamed up over a Tuesday afternoon and threw it out there, but really looking at this, and, like, because one of the things that I'd love to get your thinking on this is my experience as a therapist. I may do something for one person that works really well, and I might do it for the next person. And it doesn't kind of hit in the same way. You know, it may not be working as well. So I always.
I just got fascinated with, how is Matt doing today? We had a very intense session. How's Matt doing today? How's this impacting the day after therapy or the day after which, you know, at optimal, we created the clinician's dashboard to kind of take the mystery of what's happening between sessions and to give that data, you know, on a daily basis, we can get people in the habit of doing it. So I just wondered, now that we have wearables and other things, how do you think about using heart rate variability as an assessment tool?
[00:13:30] Speaker B: I think the first, as you were saying, I think it's really important to be doing home practice. We know with HRV biofeedback, for example, if you're not practicing at home, coming in once a week is not going to cut it. It needs to be integrated into your daily or most days. And it's nice to be able to track measures, whatever devices you might be using to have.
I'll just call it objective data, because you have their actual HRV, however you might be measuring that so you have that you can see over time. It's also interesting, just as a side note, in one therapy session, a client was saying, oh, they're fine, but their physiology was not saying they were fine. It's like, well, it's interesting to note that your physiology shows a kind of a stress response. And like, well, maybe. And then they start, you know, Dick Covertz is famous for this with his approach of connie calls it the Trojan horse technique to kind of get through people's defenses, as you can kind of see in real time, in session, what's going on, and then going back to the at home kind of stuff that you can also track at home. You know, what. What days might have seemed a little bit rougher than others, that they weren't looking quite so good and say, well, I wonder what happened on that day for you, what was going on.
[00:14:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And I just think, you know, traditionally we've had, you know, surveys, you know, that was the tool that, you know, with my, you know, the beck depression inventory was the big one. But I know we have anxiety and really well validated tools, but it wasn't like, you know, and obviously assessment is more pre kind of pre treatment, but like trying to get an idea of where someone's at. And I know there's, you know, and I appreciate this as a therapist throughout my career. Yeah, I may be doing an hour a week, but that's an hour, you know, and there's, there's life going on outside of that hour that I have very sometimes little or no control over all the other things that are being out there. And I just think like that assessment. But then a continual, you know, data point to, to see and measure. You know, maybe it's my therapy, a session, and if you do some hard trauma work, you might see a crash in HRV for the next couple of days. Not necessarily as a bad thing, but just because it was a really incredibly dense experience. But you probably want to see that start day three or so to rise.
[00:16:10] Speaker B: You bring that up. In our group cognitive, I mean, compassion focused therapy, we found that the more they engaged in the, the self criticism or they engaged in the work, so to speak. Yes, you would see the decrease in HRV, which was kind of a sign that in the moment they were doing the work, so to speak, and then it would go back up again.
[00:16:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:16:31] Speaker B: Whereas if they didn't go down in HRV, it was kind of a sign that these were the people that didn't improve, didn't change much over the course of therapy.
[00:16:38] Speaker A: Fascinating, because, like, I mean, it's just kind of like if you're training to run a half marathon, for example, probably a good thing for you overall if it's, that's a safe activity for you. And yet, you know, again, we'll see some of those long term positive things that, that short term negative stressor as you're.
[00:16:57] Speaker B: Yeah, first few weeks are pretty hard.
[00:16:59] Speaker A: First few weeks are pretty hard. Right. So, but again, with that long term, hopefully, you know, and that's where I like to see, like looking at those seven days or 30 day averages to hopefully see those numbers improving over time, you know, but what a fascinating piece of data to get where we just, I was in the dark around that stuff for most of my career.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: And going to the assessment question it's really important to know the context and what the measures are coming from.
[00:17:31] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:17:31] Speaker B: Julian Thayer likes to say, with psychophysiological research, you have rest, reactivity, recovery. So are you measuring someone at rest? Are you measuring them reacting to a therapy session? Are you measuring them during the recovery session or in regular life? So you need to be really aware of what is the context where this measure taken.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's why I love that, at least in our method. But I know other, like, that, I call it because I'm overdramatic about everything at this point. Patrick is like, it's like that sacred baseline in our model. It's the morning reading. I know, like, woo Bora might do that overnight, but like, that separated in, like, to have another kind of data set where. Yeah, it includes that sacred baseline, so to speak. But then you can, like, where's somebody. What's. Where's somebody at when they're starting a therapy session? Like, that's one of the things that, like, boy, if I could tell their stress level, their HRV, if I can create a scenario where we can get good metrics, just kind of see where they're at, it gives me an idea of, you know, okay, well, how's this person doing currently? And I may want to do more, you know, check in with them versus jumping right to the dip in CFT.
[00:18:49] Speaker B: They have what they call a soft landing at the beginning of therapy, which is like, check in and then just do, like, we're gonna do, like, a five minute mindfulness to kind of calm down, get into the moment before we hit the work, so to speak.
[00:19:01] Speaker A: Yeah, I love that because I think too often, we don't know what happened before they walked in or we connected.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:19:07] Speaker A: I mean, that. That. Especially working with populations with trauma, like I have historically, I could be right on that fight or flight response. Nothing necessarily do with me. But because of what's gone on, you know, kind of throughout the day in just their ordinary life. So give some really good data there as well. So it's the third part of this.
[00:19:29] Speaker B: That I would go back to assessment really quick.
[00:19:31] Speaker A: Yeah, please do.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: One chapter we had on there was looking at the RdoC and the high top versus the DSM. So the RdoC is the research domain criteria that's put forth by NIMH, and the high top is the hierarchical.
What is it? I figure what the t stands for, taxonomy of psychopathology. Both of them take a dimensional approach or continuum, whereas the DSM is like, you're either depressed or you're not. You're either anxious or you're nothing. And so I think this, either taking the RdoC or the high top approach is a much better taking the continuum dimensional approach, because psychophysiologically, you're getting continuous data. Right? It's not. Do you have HRV or not? It's like, well, it's a continuum. It's a dimensional approach.
So that's part of what we have a chapter on that as well, is thinking about. Instead of thinking about depression as yes or no is to think about. Well, it's a dimensional construct. You could have really severe depression, moderate depression, mild depression, and even among mild, it depends on the person what that might mean. So I just wanted to emphasize that, too. For assessment. We think about the assessment of psychopathology that matches a better match with the assessment of psychophysiology.
[00:20:47] Speaker A: I love that, too, because I'm looking for any excuse to put the DSM in the trash can. To be honest with you, I'm not a fan of that. Not a friend of the show, so to speak. But, yeah, I mean, I think it just gives a. Like you said. I mean, you said it gives us that depth of fluctuation and again, life situations, other things. We can see such a fluctuation in symptoms as well as through the therapeutic process. It's hard work for people. It's not, you know, hey, you finally find a therapist you like and everything's going to go great from there on outd, there's often a lot of difficult, stressful work to do. Hopefully. Again, we're seeing that long term improvement on all metrics, including heart rate variability. But just looking a snapshot of symptoms. I don't know. I hope that we were. I think everybody else has moved away from that scientifically. To say that's not really that valid anymore.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: Yeah, unfortunately.
[00:21:52] Speaker A: I won't make you stand.
[00:21:53] Speaker B: Oh, no, I'm not a DSM fan either. It's. I don't think anybody that uses the DSM or even the people that created her fans, but when they try and create something new, everyone has such a different perspective on which direction to go that they never get there, so to speak.
[00:22:08] Speaker A: As far as changing it around trauma, there. There was a huge fight around how don't we look at this developmentally?
That fault was. That was lost, and that was kind of my last hope.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yeah, there's a lot of different areas where stuff was lost and people were.
[00:22:23] Speaker A: Exactly selling their hair all right. Off my soapbox.
One of the things I'm curious about this book, because I think. And I would say this was true to some extent of myself earlier on when I was, like, I remember a wild divine was something that was out. I'm not sure if that's. But, like, I brought that in because it was something that was one really cool, like that bow and arrow game still, I think was, you know, that balancing a breath, and I think it was skin response and, you know, the real. But it was something to, like, bring.
Yeah, engage, especially with the youth that I worked with. I think a lot of, you know, traditional therapist or how we're trained, biofeedback really quickly brings on the idea of, I've got to buy $10,000 worth of equipment.
There's, like, whatever Ina hazad has in her office. I better save up and get the highest in. And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that pathway, but I just think for a lot of people, it's not.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: It's not necessary.
[00:23:39] Speaker A: Yeah. It's what comes in. So I'm curious, as you sort of, as the book develops, what are some maybe ways that folks can integrate this psychophysiology, whether it's hrV, biofeedback, or other methodologies, you know, into their work and maybe a way that doesn't require, you know, a certification and $10,000 to buy.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Equipment working with clients. I think the number one, quickest, simplest way is smartphone apps. Right. That you have breathing apps that you can download. There's some that allow you to control the in breath, the top pause, the out breath, the pause, and then you can control the rate of each of those. You can have sound or visual or haptic. So there's a lot of really nice stuff coming out, and a lot of it for at least, you know, they give you the basic stuff for free. So that I always recommend to my. To my clients, to my students, is download the app. I have ones I prefer, but you can find hundreds of apps, see what you like out there, that if they accomplish the purpose, especially with breath work, that it's right there on your phone.
Nobody goes anywhere without their phone.
[00:24:53] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:24:54] Speaker B: Got it with them. They don't need even simple peripherals sometimes. You might leave those somewhere.
[00:25:01] Speaker A: Yeah. As I like to say, I find pretty much everybody has a smartphone. Right now, I'm working with youth experiencing homelessness. I always wondered how the heck they get cigarettes, but now it's like they have an, you know, iPhone, like, and newer than mine. Like, I don't ask how they got it sometimes, but it's like it's you know, it is that. That almost universal tool that. Well, I won't say everybody has, but so many people have available to them.
[00:25:29] Speaker B: Yeah. If we have any piece of technology in our life, it's usually a smartphone.
[00:25:32] Speaker A: Yeah. And I love one of the things, and this is kind of specifically around our platform, but I think it probably has universal applications to others as well. It's like we do a residence frequency assessment as part of our app. However, to me, it's like the most important 14 minutes of your life, and that's way overdramatic. But, you know, it's like, don't get up and go for a jog halfway in between your 14 minutes breathing assessment. Like, so that's where it's like, boy, if this could be integrated in, and maybe that's 14 minutes worthwhile to do in person with somebody to make sure you get good data that initially. So on one hand, I'm really excited about how technology, um, around psychophysiology supports psychotherapy, but there's also that practical aspect of, you know, how do you integrate, how do you find the right tool for the individual and how do you make sure they're using it right as. As well, because, you know, just giving somebody, hey, download this.
Yeah, my therapist told me I have to sit through this 14 minutes activity so, you know, I can turn on the Kardashians or the baseball game or whatever and do it, you know, not really focus on it, but just make my therapist happy. I think there's really good.
[00:27:01] Speaker B: Yeah. You don't know what they might be doing.
[00:27:03] Speaker A: Right? Exactly, exactly. I think there's a nice, there's a nice kind of overlap there, too, of we can make sure that this is being implemented in a valid way as well.
[00:27:15] Speaker B: Yeah, we like, with our approach, like, say, if we do a five week HIV biofeedback, is to have them come into the lab pre post. So be a baseline and follow up, and then during, send them home with a device, you know, a small, portable device.
Back in the eighties, I think it was, they first discovered that people, what they say they did and what they actually did, like, say, taking their. I think the research was on hypertensive medications.
[00:27:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:45] Speaker B: People were saying they were doing it, but they found there's only like a 50% compliance rate.
[00:27:48] Speaker A: It's terrible.
[00:27:50] Speaker B: So it's nice to have, like, say on the smartphone, the apps that collect data, because then instead of asking them, oh, how did you do? We just go and look at their phone and say, what did you actually do? So you have more an objective reading of how many times you practiced. How long did you practice each time? Maybe. What was the quality of practice in terms of, did they seem like they were working well with their HRV? Or maybe they might have been distracted if it didn't look like it was going so hot.
[00:28:18] Speaker A: Yeah, and it's funny, we put all this time and effort into this clinician's dashboard where we'll even give you, like, hey, if you want RM SSD during an HRV bio feedback, you can have it. As a clinician, it doesn't. We both know it's not the best metric of HRV biofeedback, but we'll give all this information, and the number one piece of feedback, I would say, like, the next highest one is way down the list, is like, oh, I can tell if they practiced or not. Like, all this, like, forget about optimal zone and low frequency. And it's like, nope. It's an accountability tool for individuals.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: So as a researcher, we're always interested in the manipulation check which they actually do what we asked them to do. Do we have a sense that, you know, we asked them to do x? Did they actually do x the way that we were thinking? We asked them to do it.
[00:29:15] Speaker A: I think that's why we've liked journaling for so long, because we could actually see that they did the homework we assigned to them. And, you know, I always, like, I've done a lot of work, like in public health around HIV, and we're always talking about adherence. And it always just humbles me that, yeah, you can look at folks there, certainly with poverty, stigma, all the stuff that may be associated with a certain chronic disease, but then you go something like you said, with heart disease. And our adherence as human beings, our baseline is terrible. Like, it's like, yeah, this will probably save my life, but yeah, I'm not going to take that pill.
[00:29:53] Speaker B: Too busy today.
[00:29:53] Speaker A: Too busy today. Even if it's a pill that'll save your life, I'll get to it next week.
So any other, like, insights on this kind of the third aspect of your book with the integration that we haven't kind of talked about anything that struck you as pretty cool?
[00:30:09] Speaker B: I just like the variety of people we had. As I mentioned, Paul Gilbert wrote a psychotherapy chapter. We have one from Paul Ayer, one from Dick Evertz, one from Enoch Kazan, as well as some other people that do some compassion focused therapy with HRV. We also have Tim Smith from the University of Utah that did more interpersonal psychophysiology. So he does like couples. And looking at sometimes it's interesting to see in his research that the husband's physiology is more predicted by his wife's response than his own responses. He's more worried about, oh, am I going to get in trouble for something or whatever going on in marital therapy? So the interpersonal chapter is incredibly interesting to me. I haven't really researched in that area, so I was really excited to do that.
[00:30:57] Speaker A: That's awesome. So I always love to ask, you know, folks that have taken on what you took on whether writing a book, whether editing a book, you know, this, I'm sure this took more than a couple months to do, like over two.
[00:31:13] Speaker B: Years to get it.
[00:31:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I just, I was joking with somebody. I wrote a chapter for a book coming out and I, but since I wrote it and since we're finally getting around to publication, there's been like new developments. It's like I looked at my, what I submitted two years ago. I was like, I almost need to rewrite this whole thing. Luckily for the editor, I did not do that. I was very gentle with my edits. But I just kind of, through this process, I wonder if there's any kind of meta level insights that you have had after reviewing this, putting this together, probably having this as a companion always with you in some way, shape or form through a couple years, just kind of, now that we got the publication date of September 24, any kind of meta level insights that you got out of just being a part of this process?
[00:32:14] Speaker B: Since it's an edited book with multiple authors, the big thing was kind of like getting the slowly building these core of authors of, you know, inviting people. So getting people like Julian Thayer and Steph Hoffman in the assessment or I guess more on the theory side of things was awesome. But it was like this organic process that it slowly builds. People are saying, well, maybe, and then yes, and then some people say no, but then it works out that you get just awesome. The people that we really wanted in the field that were, you know, published and say we're able to get them. And that that was a, you know, that was a process that, that was a time.
[00:32:53] Speaker A: And I know a few of those people well, and I know how busy they are, too. So the fact that you actually got this together, I've watched this with the book I'm on, you know, I want to get it done. I want to get it in on time. And yeah, I know that that's hard because the folks you just mentioned, I know how busy they are. It all specs up their life. So congratulations on these brilliant cats that you did to get a final product.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Yeah. And Don Moss got porges to write the forward, which is really cool.
[00:33:29] Speaker A: That is awesome, boys. You've got all the impressive lists of authors. So I can't, like said, I can't wait to get my hand because like I said, we. I need this. I won't say we as. Yeah, I like, I've been looking for a resource like this and how do we really look at that, you know, implementation across these different modalities and the assessment piece and to have all these experts involved in this project is just incredibly exciting.
[00:34:03] Speaker B: Yeah, we're so happy at the finally getting to the end. They said it was supposed to be July 24 and then, I don't know, August or something. And, well, you said it's September 24 now.
[00:34:14] Speaker A: That's what I got. Tuesday, September 24 for my free delivery.
[00:34:19] Speaker B: Oh, okay.
[00:34:20] Speaker A: Wait a minute. Let me see what Kindle is just so I make sure I don't.
Let's see what that says.
[00:34:28] Speaker B: I think the physical book is coming out in August. And then maybe digital versions are coming out in September. Yeah, they told me August because it's supposed to be July. Now I think they're saying August. And maybe certain versions of it are coming out in September. Like a digital Kindle version.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Yeah, you may want to check on the store because. Yeah, yeah, it says I can buy it with one click, so it might be out there. So we'll check that. I may do a little follow up.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: To this, but I'm typing it right now.
I just want this to be out.
Let me see what it says on Emma when I count. Okay.
[00:35:09] Speaker A: Yeah, I get publication date of May.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, it says free delivery, Tuesday, September 24.
[00:35:14] Speaker A: Yeah, but hit the Kindle version.
[00:35:19] Speaker B: Let me get into this thing here first.
And then let's see, how do, how do I hit the Kindle version? I'm in here.
Publisher.
No, it says publication date September 24. And we pushed it back another. I just need to hold them. Just relax.
[00:35:46] Speaker A: Yep. Okay.
I got a guy excited there for a second too. I'm like, oh, I can buy this now.
[00:35:53] Speaker B: So anyway, I found Kindle. It says available instantly through Kindle.
[00:35:58] Speaker A: I think it's out there. I congratulate. Let me be the first to congratulate you potentially on the publication of your new book, Doctor Stefan.
[00:36:06] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Maybe not the best podcast interaction, but.
[00:36:11] Speaker B: The fact that, no, no, this, this, this is exploring for me. I actually have the physical book. They sent it to me like a month ago.
[00:36:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:36:19] Speaker B: So the physical book exists, so I have a copy of it. But I guess getting it into publication is a process.
[00:36:28] Speaker A: So let me say this, with all the joy in the world, you can get your Kindle version of Doctor Stefan and Doctor Moss's book by going to Amazon right now.
[00:36:38] Speaker B: So if you want the Kindle, if.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: You want the kindle. If you go to pre order, it's going to take a little while, but you don't have to delay gratification and you save a whopping $7 by doing so. So.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Oh, it's interesting. It says the Kindles publication date was May 23.
[00:36:58] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's been out for a while.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: My hard copy, but I guess they have to ramp up the press to.
[00:37:04] Speaker A: There you go. Well, I'm honored to help you ramp up that press a little bit here. And I appreciate the audience having this exciting moment that I can, you know, Patrick, if I was around, I'd take you out to lunch here to celebrate.
[00:37:19] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:37:20] Speaker A: Congratulations on the publication, Elise.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Thank you very much.
[00:37:24] Speaker A: So with that said, you know, any other final words? Uh, just coming out of this process, I love this conversation. I'm excited to actually get the book maybe a little earlier than I thought I would.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: So, yeah, um, it's a fast moving field. Hopefully we'll have a revised version of this in a couple years. That there's, there's, there's really a lot, this is a really hot area right now. A lot of people are interested in it. And so I think we're going to see just more and more stuff coming out.
[00:37:56] Speaker A: Awesome. Sounds good. Well, we'll put some information in the show notes as well, including the link. And I just want to thank our audience for joining us. Doctor Stephan, congratulations. Thank you. I know two years of work, when you put a book out, if you think you're going to get rich publishing a book, you're not. I could tell you that.
[00:38:19] Speaker B: Oh, no, that's not going to happen.
[00:38:21] Speaker A: No, it doesn't. So don't think just because your name is on the COVID of book, incredibly wealthy, it's an act, it's a real, to me, it's always been, if you don't have the passion for it, if you don't see the need for it, your book will never get out. In fact, I talked to maybe a person a week who has three books halfway written and to get it, to get it through this process, I just want to thank you personally and professionally from, for me for taking this on and welcome giving this gift to the world.
[00:38:58] Speaker B: It's a passion for me. Like you're saying, I really enjoy this research area. Really love it. And it is really cool to be able to work with the different authors to read and help edit their chapters and to learn in more, you know, much more focus and detail than I ever had before. So that was a really cool, awesome.
[00:39:15] Speaker A: Well, thank you. And again, we'll put the link in the show notes. So if you want to get the digital copy, you can. Or get that pre order in for the hard copy. Doctor Stephan, thanks so much for your time, for your work. And I can't wait. I feel like I just kind of in the orbit of the BYU HRV community and just keep doing the great work you're doing.
I'm falling in love with your students. Their passion. There's something very contagious there. And again, how they talk about you and your mentorship is really cool to see. So keep up the great work, my friend.
[00:39:56] Speaker B: Thank you. It's wonderful to hear.
[00:39:58] Speaker A: All right, everybody, have a good weekend. We'll talk to you next week.
