[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Each week we talk about heart rate.
[00:00:04] Speaker A: Variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us
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[00:00:32] Speaker B: Welcome, friends, to the Heart Rate variability podcast. I am Matt Bennett. I am here with my good friend and often guest, if not co host, on the podcast, Dr. Ina Hazan. Ina, welcome back. Good to see you. I'm so excited for today's topic. But how are you doing today, my friend?
[00:00:53] Speaker C: I am doing great. I'm super excited to talk about this. It's always awesome to talk with you, but you're absolutely right. This topic I am super thrilled about in particular.
[00:01:02] Speaker B: Me too, because we've been working on this for, I was trying to count it maybe over two years, I think, in the works. And just for our listeners information, we're going to talk something specifically about the optimal HRV app. Now, if you're not using optimal, obviously ENa, and I think you should be. But if you're not, I would really encourage you to stay tuned because we're going to talk about some frequency, especially low frequency measurements, and how to use that in a biofeedback context to improve overall health functioning of the nervous system. So really, and if you haven't listened to Dr. Fred Scherr's episode on the frequency domains from a couple weeks ago, I highly encourage you to go back and listen to that. That was just such a powerful episode. And really, what we're doing in this episode is how one company, Optimal HRV, is using that science to help people practically improve their health and wellness using HRV biofeedback. Which is why ENA and I know are both excited about this announcement of ENA, what we're calling optimal zone. So I will just sort of throw out the general question, as you've been the scientific genius fueling this effort.
Tell us what is optimal zone?
[00:02:32] Speaker C: To put it briefly, optimal zone tells you how efficient is your HRV biofeedback training. So it gives you feedback about each particular biofeedback training session. It tells you whether you are on the right track or if you need to make some adjustments to how you're doing your training.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: Awesome. Wow. I should have wrote that down because that is a great summary. So there's two aspects to this as somebody who's been obsessively testing this over the last couple of months is one, is the in person or in practice feedback. And what we're doing is we're doing a rolling 62nd measure of low frequency power. I believe I'm saying that right. So I guess even though I think I'm putting it out there, right, I've got the world expert on this on the podcast, so can you explain why we're doing it that way? And when something lights up to say you're an optimal zone, what is that telling us about what we're experiencing in our practice?
[00:03:48] Speaker C: So, the reason that we are displaying the results in that 62nd rolling increment, which means that when you first start doing your HIV bifeback practice, you won't get the optimal zone feedback until 60 seconds into it. And the reason for it, we need to gather sufficient data in order to give you accurate feedback. So, low frequency power tells us where are your spectral frequencies congregated as far as your heart rhythm goes. So your heart rate signal consists of a bunch of different frequencies that are mixed up together. And when we are breathing at a resident frequency breathing rate, the heart rate rhythm tends to concentrate in the low frequency range. But we can't get that measurement from one or two heartbeats. We have to have sufficient data in order to be able to tell you accurately where is your heart rate rhythm actually concentrated. And it seems like that 62nd time increment is long enough to give you accurate data without being too long. So not keeping you without any kind of feedback for too long. So it seems like an optimal amount of time to gather data.
[00:05:22] Speaker B: Absolutely.
As I've been playing around with it, it's an interesting thing because I go in and then I come out.
Sometimes I come out, I believe at least, because maybe I lost focus 30 seconds ago. But that sort of rolling piece in there, again, it's taking that accumulation of that low frequency. And if I'm correct, what we're measuring with the low frequency, if I was a good student of Fred's, is really parasympathetic activation, ventral vagal activation. So we're basically getting what we want out of the biofeedback practice, if I'm correct.
[00:06:06] Speaker C: Yes. So it is telling us again whether we are optimizing that practice.
We need to be primarily in the low frequency range in order for this practice to get us what we want. And low frequency power comes from the barrel reflex, your blood pressure reflex, and your parasympathetic nervous system. So it's basically, that ideal zone, the optimal zone for training the vagal nerve and improving its ability to regulate our overall activation.
So in order for us to get the most out of the training during residence frequency breath practice, we need to be, well, ideally, at least 80% or more within that low frequency range. And this is why this feedback is so important, because, as you said, you can get a little bit distracted or something is happening in the background, your breathing is off a little bit, and you may not notice. You might not notice right away, you might not notice at all, and then you've spent 20 minutes, but you didn't actually get the most out of that training, because in order to actually strengthen your vagal nerve, in order to strengthen your nervous system's ability to self regulate, you have to be in the low frequency range. Otherwise, just sitting breathing is a nice thing, but it's not going to help you as much with heart rate variability. So this way, we're really ensuring that you are making the best out of your training. If your mind wanders off for a second or two, if your heart rhythm jumps out of the low frequency range for just a few heartbeats, not a big deal. And your optimal zone percentage may not even change all that much. Or it might drop just a little bit, but certainly not enough for their app to give you warning, like, hey, pay attention to your breathing. But if you've been out of the low frequency range, say, for 30 seconds, that is significant. And the app will tell you, bring your attention back this way, ensuring that if you do get distracted and are not as efficient in your training, it's only for a very short amount of time, and you're able to get back and again, use the time that you are dedicating to this in the best possible way.
[00:08:43] Speaker B: So one of the things been fascinated with, what does it feel like to be in low frequency? And that's something like, as I've been testing this out, I think I'm still discovering, because one of the things I find interesting, and again, it could just be the end of one, which is, Matt, it may not be everybody's experience, but there seems to be, and I've talked to some other folks on our team that are testing as well, that in the morning, when I'm more awake, aware if I'm testing it at like 10:00 a.m. When the caffeine has kicked in, and I'm kind of at my kind of peak awake, I seem to find it a lot easier. I'm in optimal zone a lot more than when I do it before bed where I'm in a. I would say more relaxed, probably getting tired stage. So I want to make a statement and then you can kind of take it. Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't equate optimal zone with necessarily relaxed.
I definitely wouldn't equate it to being tired because I think there's a distinction there. Can you talk about when we're in low frequency, what kind of state is optimal zone from hey, I'm ready to go run a half marathon to I'm ready to go to bed somewhere in between?
Where are we helping people reach a state when they're in optimal zone and can get themselves there?
[00:10:31] Speaker C: I think it does feel differently to different people.
This probably isn't a universal state that would be descriptive for everybody as to how it feels to be in the optimal zone, but you are absolutely right.
It's definitely not about being relaxed. Most definitely not about being tired or sleepy or anything like that. Being in the optimal zone means that you are regulating optimally. It means that you are in a state of optimal self regulation.
And how optimal that self regulation is, is going to increase as you practice heartability training, but to the best of your ability at that point in time, optimal regulation, for some people, it might feel, especially if they're coming at it from being quite activated and dropping into the optimal zone, might feel a little more relaxed, might feel more calming. It just might feel like there is less intensity of whatever is going on right now. For others, they might actually feel more focused and a little more alert.
For some people, they might start feeling more sleepy. Especially if they are doing this in the evening and the body is already preparing for sleep, then that might be the case. I think the context of the training also makes a difference. If you're doing this in the morning, you're preparing for the day, you are more likely to feel more focused and more alert. If you're doing your training on the court sideline, preparing to jump into a game, you are more likely to feel ready to go. It may be more of a state of readiness.
And if you are on a basketball court and you're sprinting and then you have to stop and shoot, and you take a couple of these breaths just to get you into that optimal zone long enough to be able to shoot, it might feel just slightly calming so that you can stay still to make the shot. So it very much depends on what you're doing, what's going on, and what state you were in prior to this. Because what ultimately the optimal zone is, is a state of optimal self regulation, and that's going to depend on the context.
[00:13:09] Speaker B: So when we shift out of optimal zone, if I understand it correctly, and I'm trying to be a good student of both yours and Fred's here. So let me see. We're then getting more high frequency power coming in.
Obviously, we want low frequency during a biofeedback practice. And if we're prepping for something and using resonance frequency to get ready to perform, or even, like I said, I find it really helpful for my sleep quality as well. In the evening, what kind of then knocks this out? Is it just like we get more high frequency in there? What's more sympathetic activation?
What is kind of going on when we get knocked out of this zone that we're shooting for?
[00:14:06] Speaker C: It depends on what knocks us out.
So if you're doing your residence frequency training and you get distracted by sudden worry, oh, no, I have this thing coming up tomorrow, and I'm not ready for it. And what's going to happen? So that kind of ruminative state, you're much more likely to end up in a very low frequency spectral rhythm that one is associated with in those short term recordings. It's associated with vagal withdrawal. Right. So while in the low frequency state, your vagal nerve is engaged and being trained and doing its practice. And if you get knocked over into that ruminative state, your spectral rhythms shift into the very low frequency range, meaning that the vagal nerve has taken itself out of the picture to an extent. So it's withdrawn, it's not nearly as engaged, and then you're in a very low frequency range. Or it might be that you've fallen asleep. Maybe you're a little bit sleep deprived or just extra tired. So what knocks you out is actually like drifting off to sleep. Then you're much more likely to end up in a high frequency range, which is more parasympathetically driven.
[00:15:31] Speaker B: Interesting.
And again, I believe I'm right in saying when we talk about low frequency, we're really talking about training. Am I correct with this? It's not like you want to be in optimal zone the entire day.
This is like I said, if you want to bulk up like Matt, I'm flexing there. For those who don't get the joke just on the audio, if you want to balk up like Matt, you're not going to do curls 24/7 so optimal zone is still a training tool.
And residence frequency allows us to bring that training tool to shooting a free throw. In basketball or taking a few residence frequency breaths before a big meeting or presentation. So we're kind of training that, and I know the vagal is a nerve, not a muscle, but we're training the strength of that nerve in order to perform.
And then we got this little tool in our back pocket that we can pull out just to get that extra regulation when we need it. Am I thinking about that correctly?
[00:16:44] Speaker C: Absolutely, yes. So this is a really important point because many people do end up thinking that, oh, I got to be breathing at my five breaths per minute all the time, and then they can't, and then they go, oh, my God, what am I doing wrong? So the reason you can't is because, well, you shouldn't.
Resonance frequency breathing rate is quite a bit slower than your typical breathing rate, so you're not going to be able to walk around and do stuff and be effective in your day breathing five breaths per minute all the time. You certainly won't be able to go for a run or shoot a basketball, right? That's just not going to happen.
So, like you said, it is a training tool. This is your 20 minutes a day training. And if you've done that training and you are about to enter a challenging situation, then just a couple of breaths at your resident frequency as a reminder for your nervous system as to what it needs to do works quite well. Or if you've been in a very challenging situation and you're done with it and you just need a little bit of a break, you need some recovery time. Again, getting into your residence frequency breathing rate can be super helpful in order to allow your mind and body to recover most optimally. But really, that's it. The rest of the time, we do want your breathing to be healthy, but there is no need for it to be in the resonance frequency range. And in fact, it's actually not good for you to be in the resonance frequency breathing all the time. The reason for it is because we want your heart rate signal to be messy and complex. At your normal baseline, a messy, complex heart rate signal is a healthy one.
So when we shift our breathing rate into low frequency, that signal becomes very straightforward. It's all concentrated in a low frequency range, and the high frequency and the very low frequency are almost nonexistent. There's very little of that signal. And while that's helpful for training, that's not how we want to walk around. We want the high frequency. We want the very low frequency. We want the mix of all of these frequencies to be there when we are going about our day. Otherwise, it's actually not good for the cardiovascular system.
So not only is it not possible to be breathing at residence frequency all the time, it's really just not a good idea. So don't do it. Use this as your training tool. Use it as your recovery tool.
Use it as your focus tool, but not as an all the time reading.
[00:19:34] Speaker B: And one of the things that has been a curiosity amongst our team as we've practiced biofeedback is the quality of focus. Because on one hand, I believe what I learned from you with resonance frequency breathing is, if I'm breathing at this rate, my respiratory sinus arrhythmia, I believe I'm using my vocab terms right here. In other words, the connection between my breath and my heart rate, I should be getting in low frequency.
However, what I have found twofold, one, you gave me a bunch of crap about which you were right. So I give you credit, is I was trying to cheat and watch television while I was practicing residence frequency breathing and saw my scores drop significantly, including struggling to get an optimal zone. The other thing I've been paying attention to is the quality of my breath as well. And you do a great job talking about healthy breathing. So I don't know if there's science around this stuff, but I see that those two things, at least for me personally, have a huge impact on whether I may be at resonance frequency. But my mind starts to wander.
I still think I'm hitting the inhale exhale pretty well. I would say I'm a 90% there, maybe a little bit off, but then, like chest breathing versus belly breathing, all those healthy breathing is also helping me get in there as well.
Is there any science around how those things can impact low frequency as well, or complement resonance frequency breathing?
[00:21:35] Speaker C: I don't think there's been a study that looks at it in quite as much of a nuance as what you are talking about, Matt.
But I think I can address this in maybe a little bit more of a general sense.
So staying in the low frequency range is important.
But when you're, let's say you are hitting your inhale exhale rate just right, but your mind starts to wonder, starts thinking about a stuff. If you are tracking your frequencies at this time, what you're very likely to see is an increase in the very low frequency range. So you will still be primarily in low frequency, but the overall low frequency power will go down and you will get a bit more power in the very low frequency that vagal withdrawal is going to start. Happening, so it will make your training a bit less efficient, even though you're still hitting your breathing rate more or less on target, and the respiratory sinus arrhythmia that you brought up, which is the synchrony between the heart rate and the breath. Right. So as you breathe in, heart rate going up. As you breathe out, or heart rate going down, is very much a part of determining your resonance frequency breathing.
It's the third determinant that we use in telling somebody, this is your residence frequency breathing rate. Granted, we have to be able to measure actual breathing rate in order to do this, so not always possible, but when the respiratory sinus arrhythmia is happening, we actually will increase the efficiency of our training. And if your breathing is a little bit off, like, if it's not belly breathing, if it's more chest breathing, it might impact the synchrony between the heart rate and the breath, and again, will make the training just a tad bit less efficient. So, actually paying attention, being mindful, will help both with staying primarily in the low frequency zone and keeping that percentage of being in a low frequency significantly higher and allowing that RSA, the respiratory sinus arrhythmia, to stay and to help us out.
[00:24:04] Speaker B: I love that. And the other thing that I'm really excited about, optimal zone, too, is that we give an all time average.
One of the things that we've been working with as a company is how do you give people context for the HRV data that we present? And I really think, and what I'm really excited about is optimal zone is really a really simple metric that you can compete gently in a parasympathetic way, compete against yourself to improve your scores over time. And that's like, what I'm seeing is my 09:00 p.m. Versus my 09:00 a.m.. Practice.
It can be like, a 40% difference between those two scores, which I think is realistic to where my nervous system is. But I really think that improvement, seeing that improvement over time and really working on your baseline is another huge thing to track that you don't always get after a biofeedback practice.
[00:25:20] Speaker C: Absolutely. This is so important, right. If there was no room for improvement, we shouldn't be doing this. Right? The whole point is to improve. And with heartshot variability, one of the awesome things about it is there is always room for improvement when we see somebody who is in a great physical shape. They're young, they're doing great, their HRV is really high.
It's not that well, okay. Well, your HRV is high. Okay, you're good to go. Nothing we can do. That's not true. Even for folks whose hiv is way above average for their age group, there's always going to be room for improvement. And what you're talking about, Matt, is one of them. As you are doing your biofeedback practice over time, seeing an increase in both the percentage of time you're staying in your optimal zone and the actual total low frequency power, you want both of these to go up, the percentage might kind of flatten out as you get really good at it. You can't go much above 100%, right? So you might end up being at like that 95, 96, 97% optimal zone as long as you're staying there. That's great. But then what you can continue tracking is an increase in your total low frequency power, which your app will give you as well. It will give you that feedback, and that means that your training continues to pay off, and it's likely to translate into an increase in your HRV at normal breathing and baseline when you're not doing your training as well. So there is always room for improvement no matter where you start. If you're starting higher than most people, if you're starting a little bit lower than where you'd like to be, there is a number of indicators that you can track for progress.
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Excellent. When we look at the low frequency number, because we do now give the all time average in this next release, which is really helpful. So it's another metric that we're just trying to get at or above. It just gives us another piece of information, which for the most time, you could work the math out where this couldn't be the case, but in the most time, we're going to see low frequency higher. If we see optimal zone higher as well, we've done the math. We know that there could be exceptions to those rules, so we're improving that. We're also really focusing on max min as well. It's something we've given as a marker after biofeedback practices, but we're also comparing that to an all time score as well. So when people get that after reading feedback, because it's not something we're measuring necessarily with optimal zone, what are we looking at with max min? Maybe give us a refresher on the definition of that and what are we really striving for there and should be in an optimal zone know increase our max min score. I just love to tie that into this as well.
[00:28:38] Speaker C: Excellent. Another excellent question.
Maxmin refers to the difference that happens from the highest point on your heart rate isolation down to the lowest point for each of your heart rate waves. Right. So your heart rate goes up and it comes down. Goes up and it comes down. Right. And when you're doing your reading on the optimal app, you'll see that feedback, your heart rate going up and down, going up and down. So what the algorithm is doing is it's looking at the highest point for your heart rate and looking at the lowest point and subtracting lowest from highest, giving you that max min difference and then averaging it out over whatever time you are training for. Two minutes, ten minutes, 20 minutes, whatever it is. And it's giving you that average max min, giving you basically telling you how large is the amplitude of those heart rate oscillations. The higher the amplitude of the heart rate oscillations, the more effective your training is. And Max min is the second determinant behind low frequency for your residence frequency breathing.
So when we calculate your residence frequency breathing, the first thing we'll look at is low frequency power. The second is max min, and then the third, if available, is the respiratory sinus arrhythmia, the synchrony between the heart rate and the breath. So, max min is really important because it's maximized when we are at our optimal breathing rate. So there is definitely a correlation with the optimal zone, even though the optimal zone focuses exclusively on the low frequency, because that is the most important measurement here. Max min will also increase as the efficiency of your training increases. And just like low frequency, total power will increase, ideally, over time, as you do more and more practice. Max min will increase over time as you do more and more practice as well, again, giving you that feedback that you are on the right track with your training.
[00:30:50] Speaker B: And I can't help, as you talk about Max men thinking about a child being pushed on a swing, I wonder, to kind of wrap us up, could you share that? Because that analogy that you provide always helps me. Do you mind sharing that for listeners who may not have heard it? Because I think that that's a good way to kind of wrap this up and make it a little bit more simpler as we nerd out about all these frequencies and stuff? Do you mind sharing that analogy that I love so much with folks?
[00:31:25] Speaker C: Of course. Yeah, I really like it, too. So, the swing analogy specifically refers to your resonance frequency breathing rate.
Resonance is a physics term, right. It refers to the interplay between two part of a system where one part of a system stimulates the other. Part producing maximum oscillations.
So this is a really nice way of explaining what resonance frequency breathing is. So think of a child on a swing and you pushing the swing. So you are one part of the system, the child on the swing, the other part of the system, and you can stimulate that swing with the child in it in a number of different ways. Right. You can push the swing with just a ton of force, and it will go up and be very uneven, kind of wobbly, and it will come back down, and the child is going to be, oh, my God, this is no fun. Don't do that.
Or you can push the swing with short, frequent bursts, and then the swing is going to go up just a little bit. So the amplitude is going to be very small, and it's going to come right back down, and the child is going to be, hey, this is no fun. Don't do that either. Or you can find a regular, measured way of pushing a swing so that each time you push the swing goes up as much as possible and comes down as much as possible, smoothly and regularly and comfortably, right. And then the child is so happy, they never want to get off that swing.
And that's that resonance frequency for pushing the swing that you come up with up as much as possible, down as much as possible. Now, returning this back to your breath and your heart rate, your breath stimulates the heart rate. So just like you stimulate the swing, so we can find an optimal rate of breathing that will produce maximal your heart rate going up as much as possible during inhalation and your heart rate going down as much as possible during the exhalation. So that's that oscillation and that's maximizing your max min, because as the heart rate goes up more and comes down more, the difference from highest to lowest point is going to increase.
And there is your maximum oscillation, your highest max min, that's happening at residence frequency breathing rate, and indicates most efficient training.
[00:33:56] Speaker B: Beautifully said. I'm so glad. Every time I hear you talk about pushing the kid on the swing, it's like, okay, this just ties the max min. Just ties right in there in a beautiful way, by the way. You can get that. And I know I say this every time you're on the episode Ena's book, Biofeedback and Mindfulness. I'm looking over at my bookshelf because I've got, like, earmarked the copy that I've just gotten so much use of biofeedback and mindfulness in everyday life.
I rotate that book in every three to six months just because I learn something new each and every time. So if you really want to take a deeper dive into this, I just can't recommend Ena's book enough. It's been my bible and my learning curve. Besides getting to talk to you, my friend, on a regular basis, the book has been such a huge resource for me as well. So you can tell we are really excited about this release. If you're not on the optimal HRV app, we obviously love to have you as part of our family. The things that you might be looking for though, is, hey, how do you maybe going to a biofeedback practitioner to get residence frequency breathing rate?
Once you get that, you can use that. You may not be with the biofeedback side of things, but just getting that residence frequency breathing rate has just been such a game changer for me.
I don't have such a beautiful analogy. I have actually a terrible analogy is I've been practicing mindfulness before residence frequency for about ten years. Once I started residence frequency, it was like going to the gym was mindfulness. Taking steroids and going to the gym was like residence frequency breathing. And I haven't found a better example or analogy.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Steroids, healthy steroids.
[00:35:57] Speaker B: Healthy steroids. If there's such thing, because you can tell again, when I flex for the video, that's definitely not on steroids, but nor have I ever been. But it's such a powerful tool and you need a little bit of technology to get there to get the readings and those pieces, and yet it's a powerful tool now with optimal zone. For me, what I'm so excited about is you feel low frequency. And I think your point is that's a subjective feeling. And for me, it's like, okay, there's a morning low frequency and there's an evening low frequency and that there's a lot of similarities. But because my state is different, my practice gives me a little bit more energy in the afternoon where it just is like my pregame warm up in the morning for work. I'm ready to go after about 20 minutes. So I'm really excited to bring the science that you have really brought to optimal to the masses. But just really encourage everybody, if you're not doing resonance frequency breathing, however you get it, I highly encourage you to do so because I think it's a great tool to have in my tool belt for sure.
[00:37:10] Speaker C: I couldn't agree more with you, Matt. And I think this is such a good point that we really do need the measurements at least initially, however you get them. However, you can track your spectral frequencies in order to figure out what does that optimal zone feel like, you have to have measurements. There's no way to know initially once you do biofeedback. The whole point is for you not to be dependent on technology all the time.
People do absolutely learn what it feels like to be in that optimal zone. And I very much encourage people to really pay attention to what that optimal zone feels like. So that if you find yourself in the middle of a stressful situation where pulling out your phone for that pacer is not an option, knowing how to get into it and know what it feels like is so important.
But you got to have some measurements first.
There's not a way to know for sure without those measurements, at least for a while.
[00:38:15] Speaker B: Yep. And again, we're trying to make that, and I think we've done a good job making that affordable to. So obviously, ena, thank you so much. I'm really excited to start getting user feedback on this. So for our users, as you start your optimal zone journey, give us the feedback we're always learning. We want to know. I know what it feels like for me. I'm just really excited to experience this with our community at optimal as we introduce this and people roll out. So thank you for this gift. I know it's been a long journey.
I might try to get some of our technology people on here because if you think this is easy to do, that's where I would like. Because as complex as you know, Fred's segment was with looking at the frequency domains, the technology side of really getting this to our users has been such a fascinating journey as well. And it wasn't just like, oh, put this algorithm into Excel spreadsheet and then everything's done. So I think we've all learned a lot along the way and it's just exciting that this is available to our users. So thank you, Eda, for helping us along this journey, and I can't wait to get feedback from our community.
[00:39:45] Speaker C: Thank you, Matt. I am so excited to finally be getting this out to people. Can't wait for impressions and feedback.
So please, please give us a shout out, tell us how it's going.
[00:39:58] Speaker B: Absolutely. And as always, you can find show notes information on optimal, hrv.com and Ena, thanks so much and we'll see you next week, everybody.
Bye.
