Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness.
Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us out at optimalhrv.com Please enjoy the show.
Welcome friends to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. I am so excited for my guest today. I have worked harder to get Noel on the show than any other guest that I've had, so I'm so thrilled to be having this conversation. I first came across her work in the APB evidence based 4th edition on optimal performance, chapter 28. I got it up, I was rereading it and I was really impressed with her work on this and just wanted to interview her and I finally got her on the show.
So Noelle, welcome. I'm so excited to have you. For our audience, just give us a quick introduction of yourself.
[00:01:22] Speaker B: I appreciate that and I really appreciate the invitation. Matt, it's fun to be here. I'm excited.
Heart rate Variability is a passion point of mine, but probably the thing that I am least qualified in. Like I'm certified in biofeedback, but I my specialty has been more neurofeedback, so I'll start with how I got into this field. My master's degree is in Clinical Health psychology. So from that I was also lucky enough to be at a great program at Northern Arizona University that incorporated biofeedback into that master's level program, which is kind of rare actually.
And so I was fortunate. When I finished, one of my mentors, Dr. Larry Stevens, connected me to a person some of the listeners might know, Dr. Sarah Wyckoff. She was over at the Southwest College of Naturopathic Medicine, and she was leaving at the time she was only master's level. So she was leaving to go to Germany to get her PhD and they needed a position filled over there in Tempe. I was in the right place at the right time, so very lucky to take over that adjunct faculty position starting in 2009. And now that university is the Sonoran University.
Some people might know that, but it's a naturopathic medical school. So I had the fortune of working with naturopathic physicians who were doing their thing. Well, I got to implement the biofeedback, the neurofeedback on my clinical student rotations as well as private rotations over there. So it was A really fun position. I also got to teach the biofeedback and neurofeedback classes alongside Dr. Leslie Sherlin and another naturopathic physician, Dr. John Dye.
[00:03:06] Speaker A: Very cool. So is heart rate variability on your radar? Because I think it's also fascinating the relationship between biofeedback and neurofeedback in some ways, very separate science. I mean, we're looking at different parts of the nervous system, though obviously an integrated whole. So I'm kind of curious when heart rate variability and kind of how that informed both your work with biofeedback, but also neurofeedback as well.
[00:03:38] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really good point. And when I teach kind of the intro class for biofeedback, what I remind people is that it used to be EEG biofeedback. So neurofeedback is now its own field because there's so much specificity to the brain. Right. It's become its own niche. However, in the beginning, when you just look at the root words here, we're just talking about using objective data, mirroring that back to the client so that they can make changes and improvements to their physiological state, whether that's central nervous system or peripheral, at the end of the day. So that's an easy way to kind of simplify it, I think. And what I actually started in was biofeedback. When I first was trained at nau, I was. I didn't do neurofeedback at all. I was only basically EMG and hrv, but obviously trained in skin conductance and, you know, temperature and all of it as well.
But then when I went to the naturopathic medical school, they had just a higher population for neurofeedback. And so I quickly got trained up in that, got certified in neurofeedback, hooked up with some great mentors, Dr. Leslie Sherlock being one of them, and really started to focus in on that and understanding QEEG and understanding neurofeedback. It all obviously works together. That's my favorite part. That's health psychology, the idea that we're a system, mind and body connection. So obviously they work together. And when we think about neurofeedback and how that works with biofeedback, heart rate variability specifically, obviously we know there are some EEG states that are more consistent with that relaxed state, more your theta alpha, slower frequency bands, consistent with the relaxation response that we are typically cultivating with biofeedback.
[00:05:30] Speaker A: Awesome. And with your focus, then where I got introduced to you initially with looking at optimal Performance.
I'm curious how again, bringing those two aspects of your work together, how is this informed? You know, not only just maybe health and wellness, but then looking at, you know, optimal performance and probably, you know, high stress situations.
[00:06:01] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I was really lucky. Again, I feel very fortunate in my career. I, in addition to working at the naturopathic medical school, I linked up with Dr. Leslie Sherlin and we started working in a startup technology company where we were building a mobile EEG device. And we were fortunate enough to have a contract with Red Bull High Performance over in Santa Monica. And because of that, there, and therein lies the connection to high performance. So we were very fortunate to get to do a lot of EEGs as well as we did do some biofeedback measures. But mostly we focused on the EE of high performers. And so we built a database of elite performers, you know, everything from your top Division 1 athletes to your world class athletes, to your Olympians to your Fortune 500 executives.
We had the good fortune of collecting all this EEG data and then we also were, you know, backfilling that with what's, what does the research say about performance protocols and what's best for our brain in terms of optimizing that performance. And so we were, you know, combining that into the assessment as well as the training protocols for that mobile EEG system that we were designing, which I believe that work that we did and the research that we published in that was why we were invited to write the chapter for optimizing performance.
[00:07:32] Speaker A: So I, I'm curious.
Red Bull.
I, I. Are you still associated with Red Bull? I want to be careful if you. Okay. So something that I may, from a health perspective, encourage people to get the ingredients before consuming and that there's. They're sponsoring neurofeedback. Did you do neurofeedback while people drank a Red Bull? Because I just have to ask that question.
[00:08:06] Speaker B: Yeah, no, it's a great question. So I will deny all knowledge about what was consumed or not when we were not doing EEGs.
I certainly loved the High Performance center and I think that Dr. Andy Walsh over there, who was leading the charge over there, there's a couple other people who we were highly connected with and they obvious recommending healthy things to their athletes. But sponsorships are sponsorships.
[00:08:36] Speaker A: Yes, they are. And no judgment here whatsoever. And as a beverage I've consumed, you know, earlier in my life as well. So you had this amazing opportunity to work with some of the top performers in different areas of our culture and society. I'd Love to just hear what you, what you took away from that experience doesn't need to be necessarily scientific, but just, just kind of the impressions that you got, insights that you got into this population that we, we may aspire to, to be in one way or the other.
[00:09:21] Speaker B: Yeah, well, it's a broad question. Right. So we'll, you know, kind of tangent here a little bit, I'm sure, meander through this answer.
I think the number one thing is that with a high performance population, a tiny percent of increase or improvement, I should say improvement, not increase always.
It matters. Right. These people are, they are just on the very edge of what is possible. They are, especially with Red Bull, because Red Bull, they were doing all kinds of crazy stunts. So you know what was fun about working with that population? Highly motivated, you know, from clinical populations, clients is always an issue. Compliance is definitely still an issue. But these people are much more motivated than your just run of the mill client that comes in say to the naturopathic Medical Center. Right? Yeah. They are looking for that tiny, tiny edge that can give them that competitive advantage. And so that's probably the thing that makes them the most fun to work with. On the other side of that, they are some of the most, I love the term time deprived, but they have so many demands on their time, whether it's from sponsors and doing things that are related to marketing or things that you don't even think about are related to just making a living for them.
So they're a really difficult population to capture and thinking about. As I was reviewing some of the, well, both of the articles, the chapters 2016 and then we revised it in 2022.
I think that that's the thing that came out or reminded me as well is that this is a difficult population to measure just purely from the perspective of they are very busy, they are often traveling. And so that was one reason that we were developing a mobile device is to try to catch them where they were as opposed to expecting them to come into an office. And with biofeedback and neurofeedback, the research clearly suggests that more consistency in the training, not unlike everything else, I think, but you know, consistency in the training as well as, you know, condensing the training time down a bit, so you're doing two to three sessions per week rather than one session every week and a half or so seems to be more effective. And so, you know, that's one of the challenges with this population is just catching them and trying to get them into a training pattern as well as you Know, making sure that you're getting the assessment data. So I think that's one of the things that's most remarkable about this population is while they are very motivated, they are, you know, very difficult to capture.
[00:12:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I gotta ask it. And you're, you may or may not have touched on this specifically, but, you know, when I think about Red Bull athletes, the ones I resonate would be a very strong word, but snowboarder myself, I, I think about like the Sean Whites of the world and other people who, I don't like to go upside down while snowboarding is not intentional. These, these folks may do it like five or six times in a pipe. Like, that's just incredible. Or, you know, when I think of Red Bull, I also think about that dude who like went up in a satellite drop down to Earth. And I, I just, I'm curious about the, you know, and I think CEOs might experience just the same level of intensity throughout their typical day or week as well folks who might not, at least from our outside perspective, think about emotional regulation and relaxation as part of their performance. And I'm just curious, did you get any insight to maybe a side of these folks whether it was just a motivator to be more relaxed or be able to unplug then, you know, maybe just as the outside perspective is these folks are running at 11247 nonstop, and as soon as they go down to like a 9, they red bullet up to an 11 again.
[00:13:34] Speaker B: Well, you know, I think what you're hinting at is something that we hypothesized about but did not really have enough data to fully support this. However, I feel pretty confident about this, that there was a big difference between your traditional, you know, ball and stick sport athletes. A lot of baseball players, basketball players, like your more traditional sports like that versus what you're referring to, which is your action sport athletes. And what we noticed from a baseline EEG perspective, again anecdotal here, but was that your action sport athletes tended to just run a little bit lower, which means they may be seeking out certain activities that naturally increases their cortical activation. Right. So they're looking to be revved up a bit. Whereas your more traditional athletes, you know, traditional sport athletes, they were tending to run pretty high in terms of fast frequency beta just at their baseline. They didn't have a ton of alpha in their resting state. And so what we were saying is those people are more your, your stereotypical type A overachieving high performers, whereas your action sport athletes at rest, they actually were able to downregulate a bit. But we again anecdotally also, you know, from their self reports notice that sometimes that was correlating to challenges in terms of engagement and things that they were not interested in. Yeah, different.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: Fascinating. So I'm curious, you did the Red Bull thing. What, what can fill us in? What has happened as your career has progressed?
[00:15:14] Speaker B: Yeah, so I was very fortunate. I was able to take on a leadership position with that company. The product that people might know is versus that was the headset that we built. The company itself, you know, went through a couple of iterations as startup technology companies do, but Sense Labs is the one people might recognize but fortunate enough to lead the company as CEO in the end and help them through a micro acquisition. I took some time off and then I Also about in 2022, around February, March 2022 started working on another startup technology company, Amphio AI. The idea being let's broaden what we're working on. So obviously kind of went from the high performance piece to okay, how do we get this in the hands of more people? How do we dumb it down? Is the only thing that I can think of. It's not the right thing but it's, it's just simplify it. So almost like that minimum effective dose. So does everybody need neurofeedback? I don't know. But could everybody, everybody benefit from understanding their physiology better? Absolutely. So at the end of the day, what we were trying to do at Amplio was we partnered with Oura Ring and we were looking at creating a digital twin and using, you know, AI and working on pulling in some of the physiological data, also self report data with the intention of creating a software that would interact with a person throughout the day and help them identify their internal physiological state, connect that to their emotions and start to be able to self regulate a bit better.
It was a really fun project. I had a great time. It was a very short stint, just over a year. Unfortunately as startup technology companies go, didn't come through with second secondary funding from the Department of Defense. We got a first contract but not a second contract and then just couldn't get the investments there. So I have then moved on and as you know now.
[00:17:14] Speaker A: Could I stop you just for a second? You threw out a nugget there that I don't want to, I don't want to let go because some of our listeners are probably familiar, others aren't. But I just got to dig in a little bit to Digital Twin. I wonder if you could define that and I gotta just ask, is you bringing in this expertise on the brain and nervous system, just how, how do you bring all that together with this really, I think, exciting concept of a digital twin?
[00:17:50] Speaker B: Yes, digital twin. You know, lots of people refer to it, I think in different ways, so it probably means different things to different people. But how we were using that term was the idea that we were collecting enough physiological data throughout the day to help mirror the physiological state of what that person was doing. And so then with the software, what our intention was, was to, you know, throughout the day inquire, where are you at? How are, how are your emotions, what's going on in your life right now? With the intention of creating enough basically personalized database for that person so that then it could get smarter again using AI then to get smarter and smarter about the recommendations. And this was actually a shift for me more from the neurofeedback which we were doing with versus now, over to the biofeedback which was then going, you know, we had some recommendations that we were going to offer about, you know, whether it was breathing or mindfulness exercises, going for a walk, you know, paying attention to what they're consuming. Ultimately kind of a broad based health app. And our first target audience in that we thought would be most effective at tackling burnout. Because burnout in 2022 especially was really, really high. I don't know, I don't know how I haven't looked at the stats in the last probably eight months. But you know, when we were talking about this, we're looking at, you know, I think it was 20, 21, 47 million people left their jobs voluntarily. So our goal was how do we, how do we help the companies? So, you know, that's an easy way in. You get your foot in the door, you help the companies, you're reducing the bottom line for the company because you are reducing turnover, you're reducing absenteeism, you're reducing disengagement, you're improving productivity, hopefully. But at the end of the day, you're trying to keep these people from burning out and leaving or needing to be fired or whatever the case is. So that was kind of our idea was how do we create this digital twin that promotes health for the individual, which then ultimately is a positive effect for the organization culture.
[00:20:04] Speaker A: Yeah, because I think AI offers such an amazing opportunity. But the struggle is like, you know, that our team is looking at is you could give chat, gbt, your current HRV reading, you know, and give them everything you got, you know, even Though I'm still not sure it's ready to tell us what a SDN score and ARM SSD score and a high frequency score mean together. I don't know if anybody is quite yet ready to tell us that artificial or just natural intelligence wise. But you know, and then to get enough in for inputs, which I love how you were thinking about this, to give meaningful suggestions is because ChatGPT will give you a. I put last week's average, month's average and it gives me really good feedback. The only problem is tomorrow I get the same feedback and the next day I may get a little bit different if it's a different score, but every time it's higher. I get a little bit the same feedback every time. So very quickly it becomes just repetitive. It's good, but repetitive. And that's why I love how you were thinking is to get enough information to say, okay, in the state you're in right now, here's an idea for a coping skill or something to help you regulate because it is a huge challenge that I don't. It's not easy to overcome in a meaningful way. At least that's right.
[00:21:49] Speaker B: I mean, you know, you know, garbage in, garbage out, right? So it is really important and I should specify I am not the AI expert. I had an awesome co founder, Trung Tran, an AI expert and, and so I was bringing in more the biofeedback component to what we were doing. And then he was the master in terms of the algorithms and all of that. But together we were putting, putting this idea that you have, it's just like an in office, right? You have to have enough data on that particular person because at the end of the day, at the end of the day, what matters to the person is not that their SDNN improved, it's not that their data decreased, is that they function better in their life. And so if you can kind of pull that back to that view, that that's what I think will make it the most meaningful and just remind people that it's about relative change, the absolute values less important.
[00:22:46] Speaker A: Awesome. I love it. Okay, let's keep going with you with your journey here. I love what I'm learning about you. I had no idea about some of your background here.
[00:22:58] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a very surprising trajectory, to be honest. Like I, when I went to school, I just assumed I'm going to be, you know, a clinical psychologist and I'm going to sit in an office, I'm going to talk to people about their problems. I really enjoy talking to People. But what I just fell into in terms of the technology startup world, I really enjoy that as well. And it's what I think about it. When I had originally planned to go, you know, as a clinical psychologist was my game plan. And I thought I will help first responders because then you're helping create a ripple effect. Right. You're helping the people to help the people. So I feel like I kind of just transitioned and now that idea was just transitioned into technology. Well, if you can make this device or make the software that helps, you know, it can easily help so many people at one time.
[00:23:50] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:23:51] Speaker B: Yeah. So.
[00:23:52] Speaker A: So what was that next step on your journey? Because I'm trying to get where we met in our crowds.
[00:23:59] Speaker B: I funny. Right. So that I have always done a lot of things simultaneously. I think probably like a lot of your guests, there's always a few irons in the fire. And so alongside, you know, all these things that in the startup technology world that I was doing, I was also maintaining, you know, my position at the naturopathic medical school and making sure that I was staying up with that until Covid. Covid is when I officially left that brick and mortar position. But that provided a good opportunity to transition into more kind of like health and wellness. And so I created my company Tailored Intentions, which is my personal consulting company. So do more just like, you know, the overall health and nutrition and health and wellness with that. I try to get people to understand it's not about weight loss, it's about, you know, health and how do we. I think that sometimes people forget because they get so hyper focused on the thing that feels outward. But at the end of the day, we're a system and we have to pay attention to our mind and our body and our hydration and all our sleep and all of the. All the healthy habits, basically. So was doing that again kind of simultaneously. I was invited to be the conference planning committee chairperson for the International Society is and our International Society for Neuroregulation and Research. And in that capacity, that is how we met. Because I think that I met you the very first time at APB conference. Yeah, you guys were a vendor and I was there in that capacity looking for other vendors to come to our conference.
So with that I've had the good fortune of being part of the planning team who puts together the conference that brings together some of the best minds in the neuroregulation field. So very fortunate on that.
[00:25:51] Speaker A: Yeah. So give a little pitch. After being to last year's conference, I would Love. Just to give you a second as folks who might have gotten here more. So on the one side with the biofeedback isnr, why would you encourage maybe the bio nerd, HRV nerds, Neuro curious folks like me. I'm like, oh God, do I have to learn all that stuff too?
Why, why should they maybe google the conference and learn a little bit more about the organization?
[00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah, so the organization, ISNR.org you can find out all the information there. But realistically, APB and ISNR way back used to be connected because like I said at the beginning, it was all one field. Right. Bio feedback. Right. But obviously specificity in terms of the different topics created their own niche. So we have our own organizations and it really allows honestly just a doubling up of the content. Because if you, you know, if you go to apb, you're going to find all this amazing information about the peripheral. Primarily there is some neuro there, but mostly it's peripheral. Right. And then if you go to ours, it's mostly neuro. There are some things, you know, we had Ina and David talked last conference, so there are definitely some people that are talking more about the biofeedback at isnr. But I think advantage in having both organizations is that you just get more time. So there's a little bit of overlap. You do see some of the same people at the conference, but you also see a whole different type of attendee. So you're getting people that are more in the neurorehabilitation or psychiatry or those kinds of even physical therapists at the ISNR conference. And then aapb.
I can't speak to their conference as well about their attendees, but I know it's a slightly different population and you're getting a little bit more, it seems like counselors and so.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: Yep, awesome. So one of the other things, and you may have just had this from the very beginning, but I want to ask the question anyway is I know with my background in mental health, things like food, nutrition, movement, sleep, we were a little bit on the mindfulness side. We, that was, that was out, you know, in the orbit that if you were the hippie in the room, this guy, you, you might, you know, bring your classmates into a dark room and meditate with them. And they all thought I was very, very odd for doing so. But you gave me a group project, so I did it. But it took me a long time when we think about the mind to connect that to things like nutrition and movement and sleep. And was that just there? Did you get Just that early on or I'm curious how, you know, your real understanding about neurobiology really brought you into areas now that I feel like I have to know about with these more physic traditionally physical health because of their impact on the nervous system and the functioning of our mind.
[00:29:19] Speaker B: Yeah, I feel so fortunate that I went to the program that I went to. I can't speak for other health psychology programs, but all of it was just baked into my program. So my. In my first year, second semester, but first year we did a weight management group where we actually brought in people from the, you know, from the community and myself and another student therapist would, you know, lead this whole semester long weight loss, you know, group. And it was kind of a mindfulness type of weight loss. We had the red light, the yellow light and the green light. I don't know if you've seen those things, but basically, like some foods are red, you only have a couple of summer greens, you have lots of them. Everything between, anyway, so just very fortunate. All of that was kind of baked into my program. In addition to biofeedback, I was also trained in hypnosis. So that's, you know, kind of unique to have all of that rolled into one as well as having the opportunity to actually be supervised. So obviously that's not a part of every master's level program. And that was, that was really fun where you got to see patients from the community and, you know, be supervised in that. It was, yeah, just really lucky. They really hit home. The holistic approach. We have to, you know, if you're not sleeping well, then, you know, what you eat matters, but it might not matter as much as if you were sleeping better or, you know, or vice versa or hydration or movement, you know, talking about the benefits of exercise. And as an athlete, I played sports my whole life. I went to school to play for Northern Arizona University golf there. And you know, being a former athlete, you have that same mentality of like, hey, every little variable matters in terms of performance as well as just overall output and function, like how, how well you're enjoying your time. So I feel just very fortunate with a lot of coaches that I had weight training coaches that were awesome and taught me a lot about nutrition in addition to, you know, lifting and all of that stuff. So.
[00:31:28] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:31:28] Speaker B: Lucky.
[00:31:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, I love, you know, now I'm really excited to ask you this question because it's one that, that, you know, I want you to look ahead as somebody who's been on the cutting edge of innovation with this with the work that you shared and your brilliant resume that you've created over the years, where do you think when you look in a crystal ball and as technology evolves at a unprecedented state now with AI doing what it's doing and everything, I guess quantum computing is right around the corner from what Google did last week. Couldn't explain it to you, but it's closer than it was last week. So I just kind of wonder, as you look forward five, 10 years, having been in this field now for a while, I'm just curious, where do you think we're going with this?
You know, where do you think when we talk about biofeedback and neurofeedback, you know, five, 10 years from now, what is, what are we going to be talking about? What is episode 1200 when I have you back on to talk about this new development that's come out? Well, what do you think will be, we'll be exploring in the, in the near future?
[00:32:52] Speaker B: I think it's a really great question and I would not pretend for a second to know that I have that crystal ball.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: We don't hold, we don't hold you to it. If you're wrong, we will not have you back. Trust me.
[00:33:04] Speaker B: Right?
[00:33:05] Speaker A: If you're right, we will have you back.
[00:33:07] Speaker B: I know.
I think that what we have seen just in terms of how quickly are technological advances have allowed us to improve our health and our health span, I think that that is a really promising future for us because I think a lot of people get scared about technology and I'm sure that there are things to be scared of, right, Replacing jobs and that. But at the same time, I think that we will continue to develop technologies that advance us as humans in addition to our society. So at the end of the day, I think that while of course there's always some bad actors and you know, you can make a case for being fearful, I think there's been so much positive that has come out of our ability to better quantify ourselves. Right.
And allow that to give us better treatments, better outcomes. And so I am hopeful that we will continue to use our technology, whether it's algorithms or the actual hardware, to continue to advance us and our understanding of what's going on inside. I always tell people, like I my passion point is helping people understand how to harness the power of their physiology. If more people understood how to make it work for them instead of against them, just in and of itself, you'll be less stressed, less perceived stress, you know, more proactive rather than reactive. And the Interactions between people, I think can really improve. I think where sometimes I can see the breakdown in that because I do tend to be a very optimistic person. But I think sometimes the breakdown is that technology allows us to isolate. And I think that isolation, as we learned in Covid, is a very dangerous thing. And so I'm just hopeful that the technology, while it continues to evolve in the medical way and allow us to improve our health spans, I hope that it also continues to evolve in the social perspective in a way that allows us to feel more connected rather than isolated and comparison. I don't know what else to say about that. Right. Yes. I think that's a little tricky the way that technology is evolving in that. That space.
[00:35:40] Speaker A: And I'm curious where you, you know, obviously the digital twin stuff, but as you see, AI, because this is one of the things that is just fascinating to me is that I think we'll be able to ask questions like, I really want to know what a.
The difference between SDN and RMSSD and high frequency means. Now, I may be the only one in the entire world that thinks that matters. And the reality is it might not. But, but like, I feel like we live in this nerdy world of complex algorithms and brainwaves and things that maybe only a small fraction of 1% of the population could really define accurately.
I'm still working on the frequency domains. Like, I think I could do it. But I go back. Fred Schaefer did a great episode. I just got to go back and keep listening to it over and over again. So, you know, is, you know, I, I just. Anything that you see that might with AI, open up new understandings of the nervous system, the brain. I think the mind is an interesting thing because it doesn't really show up on the brain scan, but we talk about it a lot. And the line, neuroscientists don't believe it even exists. So I'm just curious, like, do. Do you see any questions out there that we may be able to answer even if we can't throw it into chat GBT currently and get it.
[00:37:20] Speaker B: I don't know if I have anything in mind that's something that, you know, I'm expecting AI to be able to answer. But what I think, just because I don't think I've thought about it enough or taken enough time to really think about what that ultimate question is. But also I think that's a moving goalpost. I think that the beauty of AI, what I see is that everything is nuanced, everything is layered and just to your point, as much as you think you understand something, either one of us, as much as we think we understand something, you read five more research articles and you think, well dang, I thought I understood that. I thought I had that right. Or you read five more and you're like, well, but is that connecting to that? And so what I am hoping that AI does is help us all continue to put the pieces of the puzzle together quicker. Right. So being able to pull so much data at one time to be able to make those connections that we would not have otherwise been able to make because we couldn't possibly pour over that much research in one go, if that makes sense. So I think that's my hope. How AI will be used and how it will benefit us.
I don't know. I don't actually out of the gate. I don't believe right now that AI is going to by itself solve anything. I think that it's going to be a really amazing assistant to help us make us solve problems faster.
[00:38:54] Speaker A: Yep. And I'm ready for that future right, right now. I just like it does about half the time and then the other half the time it gives me a bunch of nonsense. So I, I, yep, I'm ready for it. Like what's my flying in hotel room? And you know, you know, exactly when I can beat rush hour traffic in Denver to get to the airport and get there, like all that stuff. But yeah, I think you're, I totally agree with you. It's like I think we have to still formulate the right in other questions. But the fact something can go in quickly somehow read 100 articles on this topic and you know, give us insight that we may not have gotten unless we wrote, you know, a book on the subject, I think is an incredibly exciting time to get to get into. So very fun.
Well, I, I am excited to keep exploring that future with you, my friend. And Noel, I gotta say, I read your chapter. I was like, I gotta get her on the show. I met you. I'm not. Not only is she brilliant, she is also a fun human being to hang out with and talk to and a really damn good salesperson, if I could say. Because I, I did go to Chicago and get a booth to get you on this show and the fact that yes ISNR has been audience for us as well. So I want to thank you for coming on. This has been an absolute blast. Hope you can come back and join us in the future as well. And we'll put information about Noelle, her work in the show, notes that you can always find on optimal hrv.com Noel, thank you so much, my friend. And thank you so much. Yeah, I loved exploring your story.
[00:40:41] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Appreciate the time.
[00:40:43] Speaker A: All right, take care, everybody. We'll see you next week.
