Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness.
Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us out at optimalhrv.com Please enjoy the show.
Welcome, friends, to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. I'm Matt Bennett. I'm here with a guest that I've been trying to get on the show for a while now. He's one of those people that I have met along my heart rate variability journey. That one. I've been just so impressed with both his, how he thinks about stuff and he's just one of those people that I think you'll get this from the podcast. You meet him and you want him to be your friend. So I, I'm so Jared Pena, welcome to the podcast. I'm so glad to have you.
It's great to get to know your work.
Through the couple of years, we've been conversating through APB and other things as well. So I'm excited to have you on the show. And just to get us started, just a quick introduction of yourself for our listeners.
[00:01:21] Speaker B: Absolutely. Thanks, Matt. I'm so glad to be here as well.
So my name is Jared Pena and this is kind of interesting because my background academically, professionally, you would not think that I got here because, you know, compared to other people who have managed to find heart rate variability and use them in their, in their practice. So essentially for me, I started with professionally in disability settings.
[00:01:52] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:01:53] Speaker B: And I progressed, got my master's, got my Ph.D. and so forth. And right now I work with people with chronic pain and functional neurological disorders. Those are the two main disorders and conditions that I treat.
And I've worked with other mental health conditions as well in the past, but just lately.
And how I manage this, I mean, when I was in finishing my doctoral studies, it was on stress experiences of autistic college students.
And that dissertation really was what introduced me to heart rate variability because I had to use heart rate variability there in my studies and going through the literature, the background of it and the science band. And I thought this is golden because quantified and objectified adaptation for me.
[00:02:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:57] Speaker B: What it meant to, to persevere, to, to be resilient, to keep going when, when I heard the word resilience before, I've always equated it with psychological Methods and means and now we use resilience physiologically or psychophysiologically. So I thought that's really fascinating. But. But yeah. Anyway, all these just kind of happened just over the past few years even for me just in terms of the population that I serve and as far as heart variability any. I guess it's one of those things that I, I felt I have fallen in love with and if you have fallen in love with something, you tend to think about that from the moment you wake up until you go to bed and you, you get to get to play with it. And that's what I like about it. I, I'm playing with my, I calling my patients or my clients. I'm playing with my patients and how they feel their body and in doing so they get better.
[00:03:53] Speaker A: I love that.
[00:03:54] Speaker B: I guess a brief snapshot here from disability to know, working with, with patients with these specific conditions.
[00:04:01] Speaker A: I, I would love to ask just a little bit about your, your work in autism because you know, I really in my experience of running a special education school earlier in my career for you know, autism, a lot of times nonverbal or limited, you know, obviously not individuals who for the most part were going to college yet they were like my greatest teacher. And after getting a master's degree in psychology really at it was a crash course in nervous system regulation, you know, that, that I never got in, you know, three years of graduate school to call myself a therapist.
I don't think we ever talked about nervous. We weren't talking a whole lot about the brain back in the 90s either.
And you know, just seeing and working especially with occupational therapists to find what helped them to regulate their nervous system. I saw that direct correlation between a regulated nervous system and the disruptive behaviors which often was the reason they were in our school. They were a lot of times too violent for the public school system. So I just out of my personal interest, like working with you know, individuals who autistic but also you know, academically in college, I just loved. What lessons did you take away from your work with that population?
[00:05:30] Speaker B: Right.
I would say that they also get stressed just like everybody else. I think that's one of the, one of the questions to try to answer how was their experience?
But they also get stressed.
But their feeling of stress I guess objectively of course differs because these are what we call. I'm going to air quote this because the term, I understand the term can sometimes be derogatory even though some people might mean well right. The high functioning autism because they're in college, they're high functioning, they can function better in society.
I don't. That's not my view.
But I am more. I understand rehab and disability and how they, they play around people's experience. So now going back here, I.
And this is also very interesting because I thought, well, of course, dad Jared, I should have known this. But it's one of those findings that I. That made me realize that, well, at least now it's in the forefront of my mind when I think about people who experience the world in such a way because of having autism.
So they, their developmental growth.
Of course, obviously, like I said, obviously it's different.
[00:06:57] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Like for example, we're talking about people who later had to learn how emotions play a role and how people converse and how emotions can be displayed or mentioned without being explicitly mentioned.
How tone of voice, for example, and non verbal cues or non verbal way of speaking can play a role or have these behaviors have an impact on what other person is saying, what they actually mean.
Right. They did. They. They did not have to be attentive to that before, but now they will have to. And a good chunk of the people that I have interviewed in this because I, what I did was I quantif. Quantified. Yeah quantified the stress and gathered some interview questions as well as had objective and subjective measures.
I.
From the, from the people that I interviewed, I. I learned that they were, they were like computers in understanding human behavior.
And this one person in particular, he determined how many blinks he needed to kind of ground himself to think about what he is saying in relation to what the other person is saying so that he can blink similarly and so that he could also understand tone of voice and non verbal cues and his brain is processing all that information.
And I told him explicitly, I said wow, this is very fascinating. I'm paraphrasing here, but this is fascinating experience because you're looking at a person who takes all of this information into account as he spoke to other people. And I said if I had not been around the autistic population multiple times for years, I would never have guessed.
[00:09:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:09:17] Speaker B: That you were diagnosed with autism. Now people are gonna ask well how do you know you were. They were diagnosed with autism. Etc. Etc.
We, I didn't go into his medical records of course that's beyond what I needed to do for, for, for this study.
But this person was receiving assistance from, from the school. There was not. This person was an IEP so individual education plan.
So we have a documented, documented disability history for since he was in middle school, and so, but to, and he said he went through 12 years or something, 10 years intensive treatment over at.
I can't remember either. University of Michigan, somewhere around there in Ann Arbor.
On how to talk to people.
[00:10:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:11] Speaker B: And for me, I thought if we can understand human behavior like that, and this is very much like a computer and thought my mind went into, like robots and I thought, yeah, in a way, everything that the brain receives. Right. It's all input or making sense of it. We're prioritizing it. The brain is prioritizing it. I mean, not. It's not doing it consciously, but the brain is doing it subconsciously.
And I thought, oh, this is, this is very cool information.
But that's, that's their lived experience. Right. Generally for, for that population, that was, that's what I learned. It's. They had, they're, they're, they're learning all these skills later in life.
[00:10:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:10:56] Speaker B: So. And as opposed to other people who are, who don't have autism or neurotypicals, it's, it's a learned behavior. As you just grew up, it's like a privilege. Like, you just happen to have it just because you don't have it, or you happen to have the skill just because you're not autistic just being in this population.
[00:11:16] Speaker A: And I'm curious because I, you know, this is a, a topic that has, you know, I've talked to a few researchers about, on, on the podcast about just kind of looking back at that experience because I know, you know, your, your patient population or your client population has changed over time. You know, there seems to be, you know, a growing understanding that heart rate variability kind of being a very quantifiable number, very concrete number, whereas you talk to some neurotypical person about, you know, what's your feeling of sadness?
They'll kind of look at you like, what are you talking about? Like, but if you talk about, like, what's your RMSSD score? There might be for some people a really nice insight gained by that really concrete. So I wonder if you walked away from your research, you know, thinking about, you know, HRV and how it might be a practical clinical tool for, you know, and I know your, your experience with biofeedback as well, just kind of your thoughts about how it might. Could help benefit that. That population.
[00:12:27] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. So it was, for. At least from my research, it was beyond the scope to look into answering that question, but definitely that was something I had in mind because one of the issues I had as, as a Therapist as a, as a counselor.
And truthfully, I'm going to derail here a little bit. This was my issue as well. Having English as a second language.
I thought that psychologically I needed something that's more objective, something to really compare emotions and have a greater sense of what they are.
And wherever you go in the world, one plus one is always two.
And so the heart rate variability created that for me, that no matter which body I'm talking about, I'm not comparing one person's body to another person's body. I'm comparing their body to their body.
[00:13:24] Speaker C: Right, okay.
[00:13:25] Speaker B: With heart rate variability. And so, but still it's objective to the point that we know that or they get to understand a bit more what is going on in their body.
What, how the nerves are firing, how they're working in as, as an, as an orchestra together to give them the psychological experience, the perception of their world around them, whether they are consciously aware of that or not, whether they know how to provide, put in the words or not.
But really that was my, my main takeaway that I like about it a lot.
The ability to just know your body just a little bit more.
[00:14:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:14:09] Speaker B: Gives you insight for self regulation, emotion regulation, you know, when you can push yourself further. And I've been using this a lot as well, being an entrepreneur because I know I've had a history that I figured, no, if I just work hard, I'm going to be okay.
[00:14:27] Speaker C: Right.
[00:14:27] Speaker B: You just put in the time, just work hard. I can work hard.
Working smart is more challenging.
So. But if I can work hard and I can focus more on working smart.
But then over time, you know, as I got older, my, There was a change in my body that realized that I'm not as sharp I am when I am feeling a certain way, but I could not really just push my, my body through as much now. And so, and, and I realized, well, there's something wrong with me. And then I read some, you know, just some documents, some social media and all that other people's experiences and the way they're operating was you just gotta know your body enough to know when you can keep going. Didn't. Just so that, you know, you can stay or you know that you're in your aame, and then when you're on your aame, you got to maintain that heart rate variability, I think creates that pathway because you understand yourself a bit more. It's not just, you're not just trying to see if you can step for, have an overnight or tonight.
[00:15:39] Speaker C: Right.
[00:15:39] Speaker B: I kind of Know that plus you have a value if a number that you have been now testing to see how you feel about it for a long, long time. So you're not just going out of your own whim the way. If you can say that.
[00:15:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:15:55] Speaker B: So that's what I like about it.
[00:15:57] Speaker A: I love it. So let's keep with your career trajectory. So you got, you got introduced, you know, you know, kind of like me. I kind of stumbled.
Yours may have been a little bit more strategic, but kind of stumbled upon hrv, looking for a metric to help measure mental health, you know, but kind of finding that, you know, falling in love with this thing that's out there. And, you know, I think when I found it seven or eight years ago, it was, I just thank all the researchers that have been doing work since the 60s to show, yeah, this wasn't something that I needed to validate for myself because this was already well studied.
How do you take that sort of emerging knowledge and interest as your career progressed?
[00:16:51] Speaker B: Things were just given to me. They just landed on my lap in a way. I mean, not so much given. When I say things here, what I'm talking about are just specific people that needed help.
And for example, I had a patient some time ago, and the providers that this person was working with did not know where else to send her. They don't know how else to treat the condition. This is a functional neurological disorder.
[00:17:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:17:24] Speaker B: And, you know, I, for me, I would hate to hear from my provider to tell me, I don't know what to do with you.
[00:17:35] Speaker C: Right.
[00:17:35] Speaker B: I'd rather hear something along the lines of, I don't know where we're going because this is new for me, but can we try this?
And I think this is why it might work. But do you think we can try it? I think that's, that's, that's welcoming. Right. There's a little bit of hope there. But the way it was packaged for this person was, we don't know where to, we don't know how to help this person. Do you think it can help?
[00:18:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: And so I said, I don't know as well, but I will do my best.
[00:18:07] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:10] Speaker B: And from that point on, you know, using heart rate variability here was not conducive. We started, we had to do baby steps.
[00:18:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:20] Speaker B: And this is what I learned about heart rate variability from AS I, I, I incorporated it in my practice. Some people are not ready for that level of treatment or that level of information.
Not so much if they don't know that they. Dr. The reason behind it, the reason behind it, the numbers, how it's quantified and so forth. That's straightforward.
[00:18:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: But what I've learned is that people need to understand the value of that number in relation to their experience.
[00:18:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:18:54] Speaker B: And so because in the past, before I was so gung ho about it and I was just giving them the measurements and all of that and talk about it, they understood really the reason because again, it's straightforward. But then their capacity to stick with it.
[00:19:11] Speaker C: Right.
[00:19:12] Speaker B: Was short lived.
[00:19:13] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:13] Speaker B: And so I was wondering what is going on? It makes sense in my head. I love the thing, what is going, what do we do? And then I realized I think it, it might be an over.
They're jumping too far out.
[00:19:26] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:19:27] Speaker B: And so I kind of watered it down a little bit. And so right now, for me, at least for the population that I serve, I found I'm finding more success introducing it midway or even ladder for maintenance because now they feel their bodies so much more or using something objective to prove to them that what they're feeling is what they're feeling.
[00:19:51] Speaker C: I love that.
[00:19:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:19:53] Speaker B: And so now they're more likely to stick to it as opposed to, I'm not sure this number said hi, but I really feel crappy, but I don't know.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Right.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: It dismisses that.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: So I'm curious, like I love, I love that concept.
What are you looking for, like progression in treatment to say okay, we, we might be ready there, there could be follow through with this. Somebody might have a readiness now to benefit from, from heart rate variability, you know, tracking biofeedback. What are you sort of looking for clinically to say, or psycho educationally to, to like say. Okay, I think we're ready to at least bring this topic up and see if they, they might be interested.
[00:20:44] Speaker B: Yes. I try to get the feel for it in the beginning.
I plant the seed very, very early on.
And because I want them to see the big picture as I see it as a therapist, so that they know where I'm going, why, why I'm doing the things I'm doing. And I introduced that concept, I talk about it in the beginning under the idea of wearables.
[00:21:08] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Or we're using wearables now and so forth. They know what FITBIT is, to know what whoop is and so forth.
So they have an idea of what it is.
And but for the populations that I serve, I have found it more beneficial for them to not rely on the wearable to tell them what their body is feeling, but to use the wearable to validate what their body is feeling, to get them a sense of independence and self efficacy that they know what their body is feeling. My job then is before they start using the wearable, to train them to get them accustomed to it, to manipulate, to change how they're breathing and so forth. So by the time they, for example, they perform a resonance frequency assessment, they can slow down their heart rate. Sorry, their breath rate, I misspoke there. They can slow down their breath rate comfortably. It's not a big jump.
And they. Because they've been practicing for three months. Yeah, they're really, really skilled. Because the thing, this is what I recognize as well with resonance frequency assessment, their skill can impact their performance in doing the assessment.
[00:22:26] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:22:27] Speaker B: And so I realized I really want them to be really skilled or at least a lot more skilled than the first three weeks.
[00:22:35] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:22:35] Speaker A: And we're seeing the same thing with the Optimally Survey app because, you know, people get excited about that. A lot of people might, you know, come to the app specifically to get their resonance frequency breathing rate and study practicing you. Yet if you've never done pace breathing before, you know, how long, and I think this is an open question, how long does it take to build that skill set? You know, we kind of walk people through a six day, you know, kind of process of doing it without a pacer, doing it with a pacer taken. And I've come to suggest that, hey, if you're just starting this six day onboarding process, you might want to retake the assessment six weeks later. Just, you know, check to see now that you've built that skill for six weeks, has this changed your resonance frequency breathing rate? We're probably getting to their real breathing rate at that point, but without that skill building, you know, it's just hard to get real accurate data. It probably gives people a good starting point because we're still seeing a peak in their low frequency, you know, during that unskilled practice, which is maybe a great entry point. But you know, hey, just take, fine, 20 minutes six weeks from now, retake it, and then we're probably in a much better place to give it. See if it'd be curious about has it changed or not with the individual.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah, I have another comment to that. And please correct me if this is wrong. I'm willing to be corrected here. I'm just making my own professional judgment and opinion on the issue.
So because of the, the finickiness of the resonance frequency breath rate. Right. And how is finicky in the sense that someone who's skilled, doing this assessment can have a different value versus someone who is not because that will affect the performance. Right.
And so what I have done before was I butcher. At least they, they're comfortable. Right. And that comfort level, it varies because sometimes they, they, they practice, but it's poor quality. So even if they practice for two weeks, it's still poor quality because you're not doing it. Right.
[00:25:03] Speaker C: Right.
[00:25:03] Speaker B: If that may require further, further coaching or training for me. But once I feel like they can, then I'm willing to put them there. But at the same time, sometimes I tell them, well, is this, is there a big difference from say, five breasts per minute to 5.5 breasts per minute? Now, one plus one is never two. Right, we know that.
So five and 5.5 are two different numbers.
[00:25:39] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:25:40] Speaker B: This is where the rehab part of me comes, comes into play practically. You know, if you count, if you do the math, 40% inhalation, 60% exhalation. I had had a table on this, on Excel, and I figured I want to see the actual values. And you're looking at all these values in seconds.
They're minuscule.
[00:26:03] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:05] Speaker B: Do they make a big difference in practicality? I think that's where the skill comes in.
It makes sense because if they can hit that mark, whatever the value is, where it says five, if it can hit that mark often, then it makes a difference if they really are skilled and breathing according to their resonance frequency. Now, if they're not, it's going to be hit and miss.
[00:26:28] Speaker C: Right.
[00:26:29] Speaker B: That tells me. And it's. It's going to be hit and miss. Right.
And it there. If they say, oh, they're getting hit. But does it matter much? Because the difference between 5 and 5.5 is actually very, very small.
[00:26:41] Speaker A: Very small.
[00:26:42] Speaker B: And so what matters most? Then again, this is where the rehab comes in. The practicality for me, I think the main, the main point for me is that they stick to it.
[00:26:52] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah.
[00:26:54] Speaker B: So that after they get their resonant frequency or they're practicing and all that, they still keep going.
[00:26:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:00] Speaker B: That's what's going to make a big difference in the long run. Now, granted, if they are messing up, right, but they're keep, they are keeping going. If I can say that they keep going with their practice, they're. Instead of doing a 5.5, they're doing a 6.5.
[00:27:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:17] Speaker B: In the general scheme of things, if you do the math there the difference, 5.5, 6.5. Yeah, there's a difference.
But we're Talking about optimizing.
[00:27:25] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:27:26] Speaker B: The people that I work with, they just want to be better. They're not optimizing.
So the practicality of it for me is they just want to see a noticeable difference in how their body is so that they can live through the next day or not live. This is as a exaggeration but you know they can manage the life different stressors and so forth. The symptoms better the next day.
[00:27:48] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:27:48] Speaker B: And that's what's really going to keep them going. And eventually they know them because I tell them give us six months or a year try this again because your skill has improved so that we can fine tune what the value is for you.
[00:28:03] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:28:04] Speaker A: And I think we've hit you know the, the recent. If somebody gave me a research grant I could say one thing with HRV is does residents frequency breathing change? Because the research and I'm really really clear about this says no like that your residence frequency is your residence frequency after about the age of when you stop getting taller, when you stop your growth spurts, it's locked in.
I don't think that's true. Like we because we like working with special operators in the military, special forces.
I we just kept getting is you know I'm on my $10,000, $12,000 thought tech equipment. We're getting 3.5 breaths per minute and I'm like we were pushing it moving it down to four breaths per minute.
Are you, are you sure? It's like here's the data you know. And so we had to add that now why you know that the experts, the Gewurtz's of the world say it's body mass. Well like my height's not pro. I may get a little shorter as time goes by as I get older and older. But like body mass could change fairly dramatically over a ten year period of time. So is resonance frequency really set?
And I won't say this is Gewurtz answering me but the general with the experts that I can ask these questions on there it probably does you know which that doesn't really help me because I want to stick to the research but it's like yeah you probably should take it maybe yearly and be curious about it is kind of where, where I fall with that because in the skill thing that you mentioned I think for our listeners is so key to whether you're a clinician or an individual user.
This is a skill set. And I even find now with the optimal zone meter like how I exhale I throw some muscle contractions like pelvic floor contractions and, you know, in there as well. And I see my scores improve with time and optimal zone because I'm. I'm building up better skills, you know, now. Now at night I got to relax a little bit and just breathe. But yeah, like, I can get there.
[00:30:24] Speaker B: I'm so glad you mentioned that. You talk about skill. I think it's well worth to talk about what kind of skill we're talking about here. Yeah, right. You're doing mask muscle contraction. I played with it as well, and I thought this is my jam. Okay.
You have to. Sorry, I have to pause here for a second and really think about what I'm gonna say because I also recognize that there. What I'm doing, there's no scientific backing. It's just JR's thing. I'm not even speaking.
[00:30:58] Speaker A: We. We allow our guests to be speculation.
[00:31:03] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:31:04] Speaker A: As long as we label it, we're okay doing it. So.
[00:31:07] Speaker B: Okay, excellent.
And. And this is what I found more beneficial, at least for my body.
And I kind of teach some of my patients this way as well.
And the reason for this is because it helps them.
It helps the patients I have who are too technical be too technical. And they go, wait, Jerry, we don't want that. And the reason why this is so when they feel that they're technical, they think technically. Right. They got to know exactly how many breasts and so forth they can be technical. And then therefore, they can feel more at ease with their body.
When they feel more comfortable, that they feel like they're doing it right, then they can get a better reading.
[00:31:54] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:31:54] Speaker B: As opposed to they're being technical now. They're more concerned. Their effort now increases figuring out having the self doubt and having this doubt that is even going to read it. Right. And so forth. And it just kind of became a cycle.
[00:32:09] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:32:09] Speaker B: Of not knowing. And that affects their skill, that affects their performance.
When they're doing. They just. Even the resonance frequency or even just regular practice.
[00:32:18] Speaker C: Right.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: So what I. What I focus more on when I say the skill here is the sensation of how it feels to breathe.
[00:32:26] Speaker C: Right.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: And that's what I pay attention to.
Most people understand box breathing and so forth. 4, 7, 8, you name it, all these types of breathing exercises.
And almost maybe this is biased, of course, because of the population that they serve. But almost everybody that I've worked with who've done those exercises, they said they don't help me, even the big one. And then I'm gonna say this out here, because I don't have any platform, Matt. Yeah, the big one, the Huberman Lab, Stanford research, NIH granted research, physiological psi. And many therapists are saying, oh, just do this. It's gonna help you with anxiety and so forth, reduce stress. And I thought the first thing that came to my mind was that is deep.
[00:33:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:16] Speaker B: What about over breathing?
And, and then I would have patients in my clin and in my office.
Tell me, Jared, I. I've done this. I've read this. This big Stanford researcher, highly funded, multi million level.
Level of grant funding and so forth. And it's not helping me.
[00:33:38] Speaker C: Right.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: And you know, we look at the research, they give you an idea of how it's done. If you look at his videos on YouTube, they show you, they demonstrate to you how it's done.
And I tell my patients, yeah, I, I understand. You know, this is research. And unfortunately we have to understand research for what it is.
[00:33:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:33:57] Speaker B: What research is? It's one study.
And I said, look at the population, their samples. They're college students.
[00:34:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:06] Speaker B: Okay. And I'm talking about people who are in their 40s who are experiencing chronic pain.
And I said, these are two different populations.
[00:34:17] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:34:18] Speaker B: And so. And I said, this is the downside for, for us in.
I don't say I'm in academia anymore. That was my trajection sometime before.
Long story short, I decided that it'll be better for my, myself not to go that direction.
Is that diplomatic enough for you?
[00:34:39] Speaker A: Yep. That's good. I understand.
I still work with a lot of people in academia, so. Enough said. Yes, yes.
[00:34:46] Speaker B: Until I think, until I can go there according to my terms.
[00:34:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: And, you know, I like being in kind spaces. How about that? I like being in kind places.
So. Because it helps my nervous system, not just psychologically, but anyway, I, I said the, the, the research, you know, the population, it's just one research.
Your body is different, number one. Okay.
And so the way you experience your body when you practice that breathing exercise is going to be different from all these college students who don't have, say, gout issues.
[00:35:29] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:35:30] Speaker B: Who probably bike to school.
[00:35:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:34] Speaker B: Who, yes. Granted, they're stressed and so forth. I understand.
But who also tend to have high heart rate variability to begin with.
[00:35:43] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: So we, we, we cannot really compare that. And so even this breathing exercise, you know, there's a research on it.
Yeah, it's. It's one. We have to replicate it.
[00:35:55] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:35:56] Speaker B: Replicate in different populations. And for me, I take it with a grain of. Grain of. I know. Tinier than sand.
[00:36:02] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:36:03] Speaker B: We, we have to recognize it. And it's the downside of the Internet is you, when you have this researcher highly published already telling everybody this is the way to go.
You have a flock of people just go in that direction because, oh, maybe this works. And then for me, I see them in my office or some, you know, the clinical population see my office, they're saying, oh, it doesn't work.
And, and this is the downside for many academics.
They don't. They. They talk about the limitations of the study. Right. Which is good.
But that's not how the layman population understand the limitations of the study. I think it's important to note, to tell people frankly what it is not as opposed to what it is. So we know a bit more. Don't just say of the limitations, because I started going to research here, but that's been always my issue when it comes to research.
I really break it down and analyze it because unless it's palatable and understandable by the people that I serve.
[00:37:06] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:07] Speaker B: It just goes down into, as we know, this black hole of who knows whose meta analysis is going to retrieve this information, if at all.
But yeah, and then the gatekeeping aspect of this, the research. Now people can say, Jared, you're, you're baloney. There's publishers, there's copyright.
I understand my standpoint. There is, you know, if I'm paying tax monies for this, then I should have this information, which should be public.
So anyway, going into derail here, that kind of tells people where I stand here when it comes to the research. Because you mentioned research here. I, I like with heart rate variability, the research there. I'm going to circle back here is a lot. Right. It's substantial.
[00:37:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:53] Speaker B: It gives us a really good understanding now of how the body operates.
[00:37:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Clinical settings and so forth. You know, we have this published book. I really, you know, I feel bad because I bought.
I forgot what the name of it is. But anyway, I bought it.
I bought one, the, the most recent edition and then the next year they came up with the most recent edition is.
And I go, darn it, I spent a lot of money on the other one.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I know the book you're talking about. Yeah. It's not a cheap publication.
[00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Compilation.
There's a lot of value in that.
[00:38:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:31] Speaker B: Oh, my goodness. We talk about RCTs compile.
[00:38:35] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:38:36] Speaker B: And so for one topic, for different populations. And what I like is that it's frank. It tells you where the, where the knowledge is not.
[00:38:44] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:45] Speaker B: So, you know, not to think through, not sure, not overthink. It.
[00:38:49] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:38:50] Speaker B: Right. So for me, clinically, I. Oh my goodness, I can't talk about a lot about that. I mean, just the way it's presented to my technical mind is going. Bullet points.
[00:39:00] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:39:01] Speaker B: Whoever, whoever designed this, the, the topics in there. Thank you.
[00:39:07] Speaker A: Yes, it is a spectacular reference, if not a cover to cover, you know, it is, it's deep. But boy, when you need, when you, when you have a question about does this work for this. I mean, to get that honest.
Here's where we're at. Here's the questions left over. It's.
[00:39:31] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:31] Speaker A: It's a resource that's, you know, just a spectacular.
[00:39:36] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:39:37] Speaker A: Four folks like you and myself who, who don't want to step outside the research except to ask those questions. And as you working clinically with folks knowing the individual, you know, you got to put every, all the research within the lens of what's the, what's the condition? What do you know about, you know, their health, wellness, and what are they going to do? Because you mentioned something kind of offhandedly that I think is the, maybe the most important thing is are they going to practice? Are they going to do this? Because we get, we could spend $1,000 getting your perfect resonance frequency breathing rate. If you're not going to ever use it, you just wasted a lot of money, you know, to, to get that rate. So it's that, that how do you help someone find a motivation for adherence to a treatment that we've got research to say, hey, it's going to help this condition. And how do we help to promote, you know, the, the adherence to, to that? Because if there's no adherence, it doesn't mean much.
[00:40:46] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. If you have this idea that has a lot of value, but if people don't use it, then it doesn't help.
I go back to interoception.
[00:40:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:00] Speaker B: Feeling the person's body, helping them to feel their own body.
Because now they're, and then this is part of my treatment as well. I tell them that they're, they're the captain of their own ship.
Right. But for people who experience chronic illness, they don't want to be the captain of that ship. They want to be captain of another ship.
[00:41:20] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:21] Speaker B: But not this ship that they have.
[00:41:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:23] Speaker B: And so how the, the golden for me is to have to figure out how to circumvent that and then to still place them at the helm of their own ship to change how they feel about their own ship once they understand a bit more.
Anything else, like for example, wearables objective measures and so forth become. Or make more sense.
[00:41:47] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: I'm not introducing anything foreign now, again, like I said earlier, it validates their experience.
But I go back to that question. For treatment adherence.
It's the art of therapy, I would say, in combination of just feeling your own body, when you feel that you're actually making a difference in your body, and then you see a validated measure of that, it reinforces what you already know.
[00:42:14] Speaker C: I love that.
[00:42:14] Speaker B: And therefore you are more likely to stick to it. Because I've seen it the other way around.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Yes.
Yeah, that was kind of my question, because interoception is maybe the most popular topic of the 200 episodes that we're approaching here. And it's fascinating, but what you said just, like, kind of blew my mind a little bit about. I think we assume you're.
But this is my mistake, so I won't say we. I'll say, Matt, like, okay, how do I get in touch with, you know, how my body's feeling? But, you know, I spent a lot of time thinking on how do I get this ship in the best shape possible to meet the demands of my life and where I want to live the Next, you know, 50 years of my life? You know, how do I do that? So I'm okay with the ship, you know, could be a little different, but the ship that I'm. I'm piloting is pretty. I'm pretty happy with it.
[00:43:18] Speaker B: That.
[00:43:18] Speaker A: That idea that I wish I had a different ship and getting in touch with that, the. A ship that I don't like, that's frustrating to me. That causes me pain.
How do you go? Because we haven't really touched on that. How do you go about even starting to address.
Let me get you connected to something that you are struggling to.
I don't know if even accept is the right word. How do you go about doing that for somebody who wishes they just had a different body?
[00:44:05] Speaker B: It starts. It is, like I said, the art of therapy now. Yeah.
And this is where rehab comes into play full force.
[00:44:14] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:15] Speaker B: Most clinicians. Sorry, most people, the patients that I treat, they're in rehabilitation programs. Ptot, speech, you name it.
[00:44:24] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:25] Speaker B: But their perspective on treatment is the medical model in which I know what I can do to teach you to get better.
And this is my prescription. It's not a drug. Okay. This is how you do it.
I am. I am the keeper of the knowledge.
And this is what you need to do that right away.
Differentiates power dynamics.
[00:44:53] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:44:54] Speaker B: Because now I am a recipient of A knowledge I don't have.
[00:44:59] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:00] Speaker B: And this knowledge is what I need. So I relied on my provider, this therapist, this provider to tell me this knowledge.
That's not how I approach it.
[00:45:11] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: I do my best to dismantle the power dynamic using specific words, of course. But also I, I genuinely care about the people I work with.
[00:45:27] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:45:28] Speaker A: Which always helps because if, if your provider doesn't, you, you feel that in a very visible.
[00:45:35] Speaker B: You do. You feel like you're just. They're just weaving from one patient to another. No, my patients don't know that. Know though that I'm moving from one patient to another.
[00:45:45] Speaker C: Right, right.
[00:45:46] Speaker B: Because they know my schedule and I tell them, I'm so sorry, get a little bit over late there and say, no, Jared, it's okay. We understand. We understand we can't. We have a hard time booking my calendar and all that. They. They know it's full.
[00:46:00] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:01] Speaker B: So they understand. Sometimes I tell them, yeah, sir, you're my, you're my one out of nine today or my one out of eight today. And I tell them at the very end, you're my seven out of eight. I have one more after you.
And you're talking about hour long sessions.
[00:46:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:16] Speaker B: Or 50, 55 minute long sessions are in there.
[00:46:19] Speaker A: So anyway, that's by, by the way, having done therapy, that, that is a full day if you're doing nine.
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah. Psychotherapy too.
[00:46:28] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:46:29] Speaker B: So it's. Yeah. It. Yeah.
[00:46:36] Speaker A: Suggestions for you after we record here because. Wow.
[00:46:41] Speaker B: I would say it's not really for the. I'm trading someone because I need help to. I need another person. What I'm doing.
[00:46:46] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:46:47] Speaker B: And I was, I joked around and I said something along the lines of, so I think you need more stamina.
[00:46:58] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:00] Speaker B: We were on hour four.
Hour four.
And. Yeah.
Because it's intense.
[00:47:08] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:47:10] Speaker B: What we're doing is practice.
[00:47:12] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:12] Speaker B: It's intentional practice. But look, to answer your question, because there's one more point I wanted to mentioned too. So I do my best to bring the power dynamic down to at least, or at the very least get rid of it. Really.
So they feel that they're. They know that they're cared for and they feel it.
[00:47:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:47:32] Speaker B: It's one thing to just feel it, but it's another thing to know that they know.
And I do the practice with them.
Okay. And I speak to them in terms of the, in terms of the. The idea that they will understand their body more as opposed to tell them how to tell them what to know. In a way. I Think another way to say this is a long time ago when I was teaching for my program, I had to teach master level students and, and undergrads before I really started teaching. I, I came across this concept, a statement years ago and it said it's one thing to teach a lesson in class is another thing to teach the students.
To teach a student.
[00:48:25] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:48:26] Speaker B: And that stood out to me. So I applied that principle when I was teaching, made teaching a lot more fun when I knew that I was teaching the students as opposed to just teaching a lesson.
And I, I take that experience with my patients in my sessions. I am teaching the patient. I'm not teaching psycho education or nervous system.
I am teaching them how this knowledge applies to them and I show it to them. I quite literally show it to them through examples and explain experiences so that they know for themselves and they feel that for themselves on top of, you know, the power dynamic and all that. So. But those are the two main ones that make this more. I say rehab based because now I am catering to what the person needs as opposed to just having a checklist of things that I need to give the person to know.
Give the person to know or to, to have.
[00:49:29] Speaker A: I love that. Well, I know we're hitting about the hour point, but I gotta ask you a question and then hopefully we can continue this conversation.
Have you back.
Where do you think when you look at your work and as technology improves and wearables are getting more and more prevalent, where do you see this idea as somebody who's integrated autonomic health into, you know, your, your work with resonance frequency breathing, hrv.
Where do you see us going? Where do you think, five, ten years from now?
You know, we were just joking around about AI before we hit record on this. You know, where do you think we'll be as technology is hitting a, I think really exciting. A little scary too. But, but we're, we're just entering, I think, another whole stage of technological development.
Just when autonomic health is kind of getting into the mainstream more and more each day.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a really good question. I thought about that as well before and this is what I hope that we go into.
I like the wearables because it makes sense. Instantaneous. I, I need data, I need, I need something tangible to tell me what's going on inside me. Makes sense.
But I don't need it to tell me exactly what it thinks is going on inside me.
[00:51:04] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:05] Speaker B: Because then psychologically it's going to impact me and affect the way I interpret that. Which will then impact my physiology.
[00:51:15] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:17] Speaker B: And so I think that's where we have to be very careful when it comes to stress. Like for example, oh, this rebel say, oh, I'm stressed.
What does it mean? I'm even more stressed that I'm thinking I'm stressed.
[00:51:30] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:31] Speaker A: And that could be good stress too. Like it doesn't distinguish between you. Stress and distress and.
[00:51:37] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. I think it's best to. To just say there is a heightened. What sympathetic arousal, whatever. It'd be a bit more precise, I guess, in here. So that it's not misunderstood.
[00:51:51] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:51:51] Speaker B: And then go back to research. Right. I was mentioning earlier, it's one thing to say what your research is and what's it about so people understand you. It's another thing to say what it is about so that you're not misunderstood.
[00:52:03] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:04] Speaker B: So I think we need to do the same thing here so that it's not as we. We get to really understand it, especially with AI, the prompt messaging, the feedback. Also to maybe potentially give us.
Don't give us the problem. And this is what I don't like about some of these variables. To tell you what the problem is. To tell you, oh, this is going on like the stress and so forth. But I want them to give me an idea of what I can do to fix it.
[00:52:31] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:31] Speaker B: Don't give me a problem and say, okay, this is problem.
[00:52:34] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:52:35] Speaker B: No, but what do I do? And I feel even more stressed thinking about what to do with the problem.
[00:52:40] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:52:40] Speaker B: But I'd like to be able to have options on what I can do maybe based on the context that I'm in or maybe not. You know, the AI may not be able to pick that up, that information up, but again, it points me into more problem solving. Now, given this data, how I'm going to think about it, it gives me the space to figure out what is best for me as opposed to it dictating what I should be doing. It opens up more exploration with my body, with my experience, physiologically, psychologically and psychophysiologically, you know, the dynamic between the two so that I can really be in control of what's going on. But that's where I think we need.
[00:53:18] Speaker A: To create an introception app. The thing that came to mind is the mood ring. Back in the day, I may be younger than I am, but like we had this great biofeedback device called a mood ring that changed colors.
[00:53:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:53:33] Speaker A: I don't know if I don't think it was ever scientifically validated, but it's like, in some ways we were onto something like that. No HRV metric is going to tell you what your mood is, nor probably should it. But that introspection part is, I think, so key to bringing the subjective and the objective together in an actionable, meaningful way. You know, and then, you know, as you mentioned too, is, hey, I'm in the middle of a meeting. I. I can't go for a walk outside right now. Like, so then it's the context around that, you know, as. As well. Which I think when we try to simplify this into a readiness score, for example, you know, it makes it a little difficult because, you know, where we're getting, you know, however you're going to figure a readiness score, you know, it's, it's, you know, one part of the overall equation. And this is where I think, like, working with individuals like you can be so powerful for people, because I can reflect, I can strategize, you know, I can plan around some of this stuff with somebody who, I have that. Who knows me in the way that, you know, your, your clients, which I just think puts all this data into a very usable context.
They think a lot of individuals, you know, some individuals really struggle with just getting a number with things. So.
[00:55:02] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. You, you mentioned the verb on, you know, I don't. I know we're out of time, but I'm wondering if. I have a question.
[00:55:07] Speaker A: Yes, please do.
[00:55:07] Speaker B: Recording.
Yeah, I, I think there's a lot more to talk about when it comes to the wearables and what they can do for us.
And I think there's a lot, even with AI to give us some backing, some assistance in there of what could be happening.
And the human experience in there, I think it should be at the forefront, just my own perspective, the human experience.
And we have the AI to validate and help us understand our own bodies just a little bit more.
[00:55:45] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:55:45] Speaker B: You know that, that's grounded in, you know, in science and scientific principles and physiological principles, because most, most people don't know that.
[00:55:54] Speaker A: Right, exactly.
[00:55:56] Speaker B: And, and I mentioned earlier, some people that I've worked with, they don't want to feel their ship, so to speak. Right. Yes.
But how do you navigate that if you're just telling that person wearing this wearable you're stressed? Oh, they already know, right.
[00:56:10] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:56:10] Speaker B: You tell me that I'm stressed or you tell me that this is happening. I already know. I don't want to be in his body, actually.
[00:56:16] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: One, especially with something like chronic pain, like, it's, it's your. It's always a part of that experience of being in your ship that it's painful. So, you know. Yeah. And as you mentioned, how do we take all that into account to, to offer, you know, very meaningful strategies, you know, to individual support, to individuals with that is. I, I really think they like agree with you that that's five to ten years from now.
Can we get to that, that point as our technology is I think opening doors that, you know, five years ago we did think whatever, you know, I, I didn't imagine, you know, my frustrations with chat GBT5 like, wow, I didn't even think I could have those frustrations a couple years ago. Like the fact that it just won't get this whole thing. I'm asking it to do quite perfect.
It did do 90% of something that I would have had to done all by myself. So, you know, can we use this technology to really help people and supplement the work that you're doing? Because I think, well, I know the human connection is such a part of this healing experience that I, I've not seen something I'm interacting through a screen quite replicated any, any kind of close way. Is that that therapeutic relationship?
[00:57:45] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. I think I, I'm probably one of very few.
Number one of very few. Sorry, I'm an outlier here, but I see AI in therapy.
[00:57:56] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Not in the same way that other people might think, but it's very collaborative.
[00:58:02] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:58:02] Speaker B: I also anticipated improving my own practice because I look at my sessions and I already can notice several ways to improve it.
Which is the time I do not have.
[00:58:17] Speaker A: Right, Exactly. Exactly.
[00:58:19] Speaker B: Again, seven sessions and then repeat that for five days.
[00:58:23] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:58:24] Speaker B: And you're talking about 12 hour days. And then a counselor is not paid that high. Nope.
[00:58:35] Speaker A: It'S not, it's not a field to get really wealthy in that. That's. I found that out very early on in my career. And you went and got a PhD too. So I, I kind of looked at that path and I'm like, I. With my master's, I was like, I thought I was going to go on. I'm like, how many more years of school do I have and what's the starting salary like? I'm like. And I'm doing what I like to do with this degree. So I, I do have a lot of respect for the, the doctor in your title, so.
[00:59:04] Speaker B: Oh, no, thank you. I mean that just it for me. It taught me how to think. That's what I like. This doesn't mean that's my main takeaway from getting my PhD. It taught me how to think. I mean I was thinking already before I was already. You know, I like technical writing. I enjoy technical. Right. I am not a creative writer, but it really taught me how to think and that's just really what I take away from it and I apply it as regularly as I can.
[00:59:27] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, I can imagine that folks listening to this will want to reach out to you as well. So we'll put your contact information. You have a great website by the way, mentioned the address so I don't screw it up.
Is it recoveryinbalance.com?
[00:59:46] Speaker B: Yes, that's right.
[00:59:47] Speaker A: Yes. So great website. I highly encourage. You have some really great resources in there that folks can download that I was geeking out about before we jumped on. So we'll, we'll put the links in there so people can, can reach out to you. But hey, like I said, through my HRV journey I met some really amazing people and you're definitely one of those that like I can't listen to you talking this 60 minutes just like totally flew by. So I hope before too many months slip away we can re engage in this conversation and go down some more rabbit holes, my friend. So thank you so much for joining us.
[01:00:30] Speaker B: That sounds great. Thanks Matt. Appreciate it so much.
[01:00:33] Speaker A: Awesome. As always. You can find show notes, get all those good information and links for Dr. Pin as website and learn more about his work at optimalhrv. Com. And as always, we'll see you next week.
