[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and optimal HRV. Check us
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Welcome, friends, to the Heart Rate variability podcast. I'm here today with two very special, brilliant women that I'm excited to talk to and have a wonderful conversation with. So our listeners will be familiar with Doctor Ina Hazan. Ina, welcome back to the show.
First time in a while you've been in the interviewer seat, so give you a little bit of break from all my annoying questions. And our very special guest today is Doctor Christine Sanchez. Doctor Sanchez, welcome.
I'm so excited to have you on the podcast and explore your expertise. We're going to touch on with high performers, but just, I know you bring a wealth of knowledge on performance and heart rate variability, so I'm excited to nerd out with you on this episode. So I would love just a quick introduction of yourself before we dive in.
[00:01:33] Speaker B: Sure. Well, thank you so much for inviting me to be on your podcast. Such an honor. Such a delight to be here today. So, a little bit about me, doctor Christine Sanchez. My background is in sport and performance psychology, so I've been in the field for almost probably 20 years working with performers in all realms. The spectrum, everything from, yeah, from athletes to elite professional sport to elite groups within the military, executives, even physicians. So basically, any type of performer who needs to perform at their best when it matters the most. And I've a big area specialty of mine, since you asked me to speak today, is I do have a specialty in, in biofeedback training. So I'm also, I'm a certified mental performance consultant. I'm also board certified in biofeedback.
[00:02:29] Speaker A: Very cool.
You know, you want to get started out with the first question.
[00:02:35] Speaker C: Okay. See, am I already failing in my interviewer job?
Christine?
So I would love to hear a bit more about your approach to using her ability, biofeedback, and other modalities of biofeedback with peak performers. You know, I know, you know, in the ten years we've known each other, I, you know, I've always been fascinated with little bits of wisdom that I catch from you in how to approach peak performers. And then I find myself, you know, thinking about, you know, these bits of wisdom that I've learned from you in my work. So I would love to, for the rest of our audience, to hear that and learn from you. So anything you can tell us about your specific approach to using biofeedback with elite performers?
[00:03:28] Speaker B: Sure. Definitely. First, I'll start out just by saying when I first got into biofeedback. So anybody out there who's listening, who's not used to working with biofeedback, I did not enter the field knowing about biofeedback. It was more. I just. I was fortunate enough in that when I first started working with the military, we had biofeedback. And back in the day, it was mwave through heartmath, and we were using biofeedback heart rate variability to work with service members on helping them improve their self regulation skills so that they could perform in the heat of the moment when it matters the most, as they're going through very rigorous training and very high attrition rate selection programs. So it was mwave. Back in the day, I had no idea about how to use biofeedback. It was not a specialty of mine when I was in school. So I really had to start, you know, very much from the basics. And what really caught me on to biofeedback was the more I used it, the more I saw the utility. And that when you're working with a competitive type, a high drive type person, and we're teaching them these intangible skills, like, everybody knows how to breathe, you know, breathe to relax. We all know, take a deep breath. And so it's like, okay, yeah, this doesn't sound. This is not, you know, not too sexy, not too cool yet. Take a breath. Yeah. I want to know, like, what's the leading cutting edge, you know, way to be a peak performer. And the thing with biofeedback, the beauty in it is that it will give you objective information on aspects of your physiology that kind of seem like intangible. Oh, we all know how to breathe. Yeah, deep breathe. People have been telling me that forever.
So the more I used it, the more I saw it helped me teach these skills that seemed intangible. And then when you get objective, these objective data and metrics, and as time evolved and I worked, you know, within different commands, and I was able to actually get. Once I was able to get into clinical biofeedback, that really enabled me to go much more in depth. And that's actually how I met Ina. Ina mentored me in. In heart. Well, actually, in my BCB board certified biofeedback certification and mindfulness and heart rate variability and capnography. And so just being able to utilize that, especially as I was working with some of our most elite performers, to get that objective data and to show people that, okay, this is where you're at. This is where I need you to be, to be that peak performer. It's like, okay, great. Yes, you bought me. I'm on board. Let's go. And then when they see how challenging it can be at times, and your high level performers, what they know best is to put forth hard work and effort into what they're doing, I often used to get asked, am I the best breather you've ever seen? And as we know, with heart rate variability biofeedback training, this is all about learning to let go. Like, part of being mentally agile and, you know, physically, mentally, emotionally resilient, is to learn to let go. And that involves not trying and not putting forth a lot of effort. So it has been a great tool in teaching self regulation and learning how to. I guess some of the requests I would get would be, how can I, you know, I need to be better at amping down, like, in those short pauses that we get so I can stay, like, you know, activated, but not too activated. And then also, more importantly, you know, at the end of the day, when we go home, how do we not become too irritable? And so more from a wellness and chronic stress perspective, how can we use, you know, biofeedback, specifically heart rate variability biofeedback, to help develop the skills to keep that nervous system balanced and to help them really be able to let go at the end of the day so that we can have greater patience and greater presence when we come home with our family, with our friends, with our pets.
[00:07:36] Speaker A: So that's awesome. I wonder, what are some of the kind of you, you mentioned a little bit, but some of the key takeaways, because I'm fascinated with your experience of not, it sounds like you got the position to work with these high performers, and then biofeedback came along that was sort of new to you and then new to your work, and now you've developed this expertise over a decade plus. I just kind of, as you look at their data, as you work with these individuals, I just kind of. What insights has it given you over the years on human performance, especially with these high performers?
[00:08:21] Speaker B: So one, so I guess when working with these high performers in biofeedback training, I think, you know, even the same, you know, whether you're an athlete, whether you're an executive, whether you're in the military.
Like I said, the competitive type, a high drive, it is challenging to sit down and do breathing. So this is where I found it very, very helpful to first. So when I have somebody come in, some things that I have found helpful, my approach, I don't go straight into heart rate variability, biofeedback training, and doing a resident frequency assessment. First thing I sit down. We have to. A lot of times, I'll talk about how to help them complete their stress cycle, and that a big portion of completing that stress cycle is helping them decompress and offload that stress from their bodies, because they can be resilient and really good at managing stressors and coping with stressors, but that stress is still locked in, stuck inside their body, and it just accumulates over time. And so first, we'll talk about some healthy ways to help them offload that stress and to begin thinking, like, when I'm offloading stress, whether that's exercise, meaningful social connection, breath work, meditation, laughter, you know, et cetera, et cetera. Creative hobby, that these are actually rest endeavors, recovery, rejuvenation endeavors. Same thing with sleep. And so helping them see that their body is really like a Formula one race car and a Formula one race car still has a pig crew, and that they need to come in and take those brakes, and they're changing out tires and going under the hood, and, you know, changes spark plugs, and then they go back out and they ride fast and aggressively again. And so helping them see that, it's like, well, how can we get these pit crew rest stops kind of throughout the day and kind of giving them a model to kind of work from, inviting them, encouraging them to find these short little pit stops throughout the day. And so we talk about this idea of rest is not being lazy. It's actually essential to high end, elite peak performance. That is key to our resiliency. And sleep is a huge portion to that. So we'll go into the importance of sleep and how to optimize their sleep. But this kind of sets the stage for, like, okay, I see. And I understand why this needs to fit in. It's important to know when you work with any type of peak performer, like, what buzzwords are going to catch their attention. So, for instance, in my work with the military, if you talk about cortisol and testosterone, that kind of catches people's attention. And so that's a big thing for sleep, but also when we have a dysregulated nervous system and we're constantly in survival mode.
That is also going to, like I said, impair our autonomic nervous system, which is important for healing, which is important for our learning and picking up new skills and being resilient to stress. So I would say first we have to paint the picture for these high level performers to see that this is not wasted energy, this is not being lazy. Use the peak buzzwords that they're really going to be interested in. You know, let's say if I was working with a performing artist, maybe the, the need to be creative and to tap into that, you know, intuition and creative insight, well, we need a balanced nervous system for that. So after you lay the foundation, know the buzzwords that are going to catch their interest. The next step I found is I'll work on mindfulness, some mindfulness techniques and skills to help them be able to start to slow down because it's really hard for them to sit and do their breathing or to even set aside time to do their breathing. So we'll talk about the difference between being like, what is it like when we're actually being present, you know, just really being able to be in our environment and soak on, soak in and observe what's going on around us versus always in doom mode, like, okay, I need to do my breathing. Whether can I just allow myself to be present and allow myself to be aware of what's going on inside my body, or can I allow myself to be present and observe and notice, let's say, the beautiful landscapes around me if I'm outside in nature, then begin kind of integrating into doing the breathing.
So after mindfulness, I'll take them through a couple mindfulness exercises. And depending on what they might need, whether it's a body scan, mindfulness of breath is always a huge one. That's the first step. And then your thoughts on leaves is always a super popular one for what to do with the active wandering mind. Then sometimes I'll go into body scans because I like to use the analogy of our mind and our body can become disconnected. And so just like we re sync up our Airpods to our phone, we have to resync, re bluetooth our mind and our body together. Because that's where your source of your infinite wisdom is for your intuitive decision making or whether you're in a creative endeavor, even creative problem solving, you still need to tap into that intuition. So I'll often say these are exercises to help you re Bluetooth, re sync up the mind and the body. So we're not living in thriving mode in our head, excuse me, living in surviving mode in our head, we need to thrive. So we need to get the mind and body connected. After that, I will also bless and that ina taught me copnography biofeedback. So I have found capnography biofeedback to be very, very helpful in teaching functional, like effective breathing, because many of the high performers I work with that I've learned over the years are over breathers. And I think that's just, you know, in particular, when I think about how I learned, you know, deep breathing back in my early sports psychology courses, words do matter, and some of the words and the cues that we use encourage competitive type a, you know, high performing people to overdo it, because we overdo everything. Because if we're overdoing it, you're just, you know, more is always better. Not.
So I'll do a little bit of capnography biofeedback, and so if we're good to go in the mindfulness, we got good respiratory chemistry, then I get into heart rate variability biofeedback training, and that's where I'll typically do a modified version of the HRV biofeedback training. Paul Layer's work in the the ten session protocol. I unfortunately never have the privilege of doing ten sessions.
Happy to go into any more, you guys. Tell me.
[00:15:03] Speaker C: First of all, I've been taking mental notes throughout everything you just said. I love you metaphors, the Formula one, Bluetooth, it makes a lot of sense. It totally connects with people.
And I love your way of talking about completing the stress cycle. Just to go back to what you talking about earlier, that idea that recovery is not lazy time, it's not something you have to do because you're weak, but rather it's part of stress cycle. This is how you do stress better.
If you give yourself some downtime once the challenge is over, that's what's going to help you be better at stress the next time something comes around.
I love that. So there you go, another piece of Christine wisdom that's going in when I.
[00:15:58] Speaker B: Have to say, the completing your stress cycle. Unfortunately, I can't think of the authors. There's two female doctors.
The book burnout actually very much speaks about things that we talk about in our work, but the way they were able to package it was just really nice. So I do have to throw a shout out to the book burnout. Unfortunately, I can't remember the author's names, but they just beautifully said it.
[00:16:23] Speaker C: Well, I guess we'll have to look.
[00:16:24] Speaker A: It up yeah, I believe I just completed about a month ago, so maybe I'll look that up for the show notes and put that in there. But I'm interested because you mentioned the short term aspects of your work. So I would love to just hear how you approach that, because sometimes the case studies that I've seen Ina present or others present, they're working with individuals for months at a time.
How do you approach that? The short term nature, I guess. What kind of things do you send people off with to continue the work that you might start? I just love to hear how you approach that aspect of the nature of your work.
[00:17:12] Speaker B: Yes. And so just my. The nature of my short term work is that the clients I work with I don't often get to see on a super regular basis. Like, I might be able to see them regularly, weekly for about a month. It might be every other week. But then, you know, they have to go out and do their jobs. And while I during, you know, I'm typically embedded in my work with the military, so I will get to see them again. It just may be like six months. It could be a year, you know, it could be a few months. So I found that I have to be very impactful in a short amount of time. So that does not mean a challenge is always getting metrics on this. But more, I think, I believe that your merit is, when they leave, do they feel like that they received education, tools and techniques that help them be better at their jobs and to keep them safe and to improve the quality of their life? And I feel like my job is done. But, yes, it will be a little bit challenging to get some objective metrics. So it depends on. So first, you know, you have to meet them where they're at. Like, what are they interested in learning in? First, you do a needs analysis. Like, what are you looking for when you leave here today? What will be success to you? And so from there, I have to work. Okay, what is success to you? What are you looking for when you leave here today? And then I'm like, how much time do you have? So, meaning, like, if. Because sometimes I would, you know, I get clients that come in, they're like, okay, so, Christine, about to go out the door, and, yeah, I need you to tell me how to better regulate stress. Mm hmm. Yeah, I'm having trouble focusing. Poor memory, very irritable. What do you have for me? Because I'm leaving tomorrow, and I'm like, okay, great. So I'm like, how much time do you have?
So in that case, that might be. I'm like, can you spend the afternoon with me today? Because you're fortunate. I can rearrange my schedule. And they're like, yes, I can give you the afternoon. So I might do maybe about, you know, we take breaks, take lunch breaks, maybe like three, 3 hours, two to 4 hours, just depending on what they have. And then I have. Some people are like, okay, well, I only. I only have a month, and I can meet with you, like, maybe four times, once a week. So depending on that, what I found helpful is we first kind of going through what I just described to you, kind of taking into account of, like, how do they decompress? What are they doing to reset? And I try to plug these techniques into what they're currently doing.
But I will start out with. With capnography biofeedback to make sure that they. We have good respiratory chemistry, because, like I said, many of the performers I work with, not everybody, but many have some dysfunctional breathing habits. So breathing in too deep, breathing into effortly. So I know that if I can teach them, if they can see the difference with capnography, I do a lot of negative practice. Like, let's do chest breathing versus diaphragmatic breathing, and see how that affects your CO2 levels. Let's do deep breathing or effortful breathing versus effortless breathing. Let's do, you know, let's do even breathing versus an extended exhale, just depending on the person's unique situation. Let them play around with the capnography. I'm like, okay, do we know what good functionality, effective breathing looks like? Yes. Okay, good. Then we all kind of go into some mindfulness techniques, and then I'll do a resonant frequency assessment with them. And then from there, once we find out their resonant frequency, so the breathing rate that optimally helps them engage the parasympathetic.
Ina, since you liked my analogies, some, I tend. Well, it's pretty common, but the sympathetic as the gas pedal and the parasympathetic as the braking system. I've had clients that don't like breaks, so I say, okay, it's your downshifter, then you can downshift. Right.
[00:20:56] Speaker C: That's great.
[00:20:57] Speaker B: So once we find their resident frequency, you know, have them breathing comfortably with a breath pacer, we'll talk about what works best for them and their situation. So it might be a breath pacer app.
I do recommend the optimal HRV app if they have a heart rate monitor, chest strap. Some do, some don't, and the ones that don't I'll put them on just using. I love it that you guys have just a breath pacer option.
And so I will send them off. So I try to do the education, the learning upfront, and then once I have the resident frequency, I send them off. Because we've talked about how to fit it into their schedule. We talked about the importance of it. We've made it, we've packaged it in language that they'll buy into. We've talked about mindful language. We've talked about the autonomic nervous system. We talked about respiratory chemistry, good breathing. They're aware of their own breathing habits. They have some mindfulness techniques so that they can sit and allow themselves to do their breathing, and then they have their resonant frequency assessment.
[00:22:03] Speaker C: And so do they go off and practice on their own? Do they check in with you?
Do they track? Like, how do they make sure that they are staying where they need to be making progress?
[00:22:15] Speaker B: Fantastic question. So this. I will be honest. I have to trust them and rely on them. I know that's not the best answers because sometimes I don't have any way to check in with them. It's just that when they come back or if they reach out to me over email, you know, usually they'll. They'll let me know the benefits that they've seen.
Like I said, just, you know, better. Better control in their performance performances, better motor control, their ability to focus. And often it might be their ability to integrate it, like, as part of their wind down routine before they go to sleep. So more I'm getting subjective data about how they've seen improvements.
Not many of my clients have wearables, so it's kind of hard to track how their HRV might be changing over time.
So that is a. That is a challenge. I kind of have to go by their subjective experiences.
[00:23:17] Speaker C: Subjective matters a lot, right. If they feel better. Right. Ultimately. Ultimately, that's what matters. You know, it's nice to have data to show it, too, but, you know, if they. If they're noticing the change in themselves, that's amazing.
[00:23:31] Speaker B: The challenge is that organizations that, you know, fund our positions want objective data.
[00:23:36] Speaker C: Yes.
[00:23:37] Speaker B: It becomes. It becomes challenging.
Let's see. I think you guys were. I have had, like I said, not many of my clients have. Can do the wearables, but I did have one that did have an oring, and he actually was, by doing his. So again, our ring, he was able to see that, you know, one thing he found very helpful. I'm trying to go back, was I love how you guys have the resin.
[00:24:09] Speaker A: They can see.
[00:24:09] Speaker B: You can see your resident frequency when you're doing a mindfulness exercise, you're still able to see the pacer. So I have received some good feedback, actually, on that option that they really, they really enjoyed that. But this. I did have one client who had an oura ring and what they were. I don't.
Can't use the oura ring regularly, so I'm going off of this one client's experience.
Apparently Oura ring has, I guess, a stress level during the day and then your recovery during the day. And so he was able to see changes in that recovery score for his daytime rest or recovery, however, our ring puts it out, and that was a huge buy in for him, that he could see that by regularly doing his breathing one to two times a day, and his mindfulness, that he was able to see a significant reduction in his stress score and an increase in his recovery.
[00:25:00] Speaker A: Fascinating.
I have a question. I'd love to get your thoughts, because I know you worked with the military population as well. My work in the military has been more on the after side of it, especially around PTSD and all the negative impacts that war can have on individuals mental health. And one of the things that I've been really just kind of fascinated with, because I've seen that the difficulty a lot of people have is you need certain types of traits to be on the battlefield, to be in a combat experience, and then they come home and those traits become maladaptive very quickly, that there's a real struggle for adaptation, which can lead to a lot of mental, relational, medical issues if they don't get the help they need. So I just kind of wonder in your work where folks are going, maybe on deployment, high intensity, then coming back, and now they're going grocery shopping for their family.
Just kind of. Do you have any thoughts about how to help people make, I think, some of the most dramatic life transitions you can possibly make. Oftentimes, you know, you're deployed one day, a couple days later, you're back with your family, and just any thinking either of you have on how to help people make some of these difficult adjustments.
[00:26:44] Speaker C: I'd love to hear what. Christine, thanks. And I can add a few seconds after.
[00:26:49] Speaker B: Okay, let's give you now time, some time to talk, let's say. So with now. As you know, I just deal with performance, but there are, like, shades of grace. I am fortunate that I have a great.
Our psychology team is fantastic, and so I do a lot of work with our social worker.
And a lot of times I will get referrals for teaching self regulation skills because that pairs very nicely in the clinical work. And so I found.
So, yeah, over the years I've gotten lots of referrals for working with people on their ability to decompress, to learn proper self care, and also to learn to better regulate their autonomic nervous system. So it preps them for the therapy and for that in depth work.
But also I've found that in terms of managing chronic stress, that ability to give them these tools to help them regulate their nervous system is essential for helping them to work on that wind down routine before sleep. Because sleep is crucial to removing toxins from the brain in your deep sleep. And the ability to get proper sleep is going to be crucial for minimizing PTSD down the road and stuff. So if we can give them tools to help them get high quality sleep, I think that can also play a huge factor in mental health challenges down the road and helping them manage the chronic stress and goes back to completing our stress cycle and decompressing and meaningful social connection.
[00:28:31] Speaker C: I think I agree with absolutely everything. And I think self regulation here is key. Key, which is exactly where heart rate variability training comes in. Because a big part of the transition from deployment to being home is self regulation.
It's ability to adjust to the change in your external and internal environment.
And people with lower hard survivability have a much harder time doing that. So if we can improve HRV, then on a physiological level, it's to be easier to move from what your body needs to do in deployment to what your body needs to do when you're home.
And I think another part of this is your frame of mind, the way that you interpret situations, even simple things like the way you interpret sounds, or the way you interpret people's words, or the way that you interpret what's going on in a situation, the way you interpret what's a threat and what's not. You know, all of that is that same agility and flexibility that we need to move from here. This kind of sound or this kind of word means threat. When I'm home, that just means normal life and nothing, there is nothing dangerous going on in order for the brain to be able to make that assessment quickly and easily. Again, higher heart survivability helps because we know that higher heart durability is linked with more flexible cognitive process and ability to switch from one type of cognitive process to another.
So I think your clinical team relying on you to help folks with self regulation is perhaps unbeknownst to them, but they're tapping exactly into that power of HIV in training. Quick, quick ability to shift from one interpretation to another in one state to another.
[00:30:34] Speaker B: Thank you. Ina. One of two things that just came into mind as I was listening. One is the power of social connection. I have found that fascinating. And just in terms of just me personally, I can't normally wear an our ring regularly during the day, but I have just been fascinated by how meaningful social connection, how that can greatly impact at least my heart rate variability. So. But we know about the, you know, meaningful social connection, being connected, feeling connected to yourself, but and most importantly to others, how that impacts your. Your ventral vagus. And I think that is something that we underestimate. So how can we encourage others, you know, within the military, anybody who's in any type of high risk trauma scenario, the importance of finding meaningful social connection where you feel related and seen and understood by others and how that impacts your ability to be resilient with all the different challenges and adversity that you might be facing.
[00:31:42] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:31:43] Speaker C: So, so, so true and important. And, you know, this makes me think of a, you know, a person I worked with who was having trouble adjusting to life after deployment. And this person's feeling was that I'm not connecting. I'm so used to just being part of this very insular team and having to disengage from everybody else, given the kind of work that this person was doing and now coming back and helping to reconnect with spouse and children and friends, having that objective data. So we were, when this person was talking about these experiences, being hooked up to heart survivability, and specifically to the spectral analysis, seeing the high frequency, which is the vagal activity, the very low frequency, which is vagal withdrawal or could be sympathetic activity, and then that low frequency barore reflex, parasympathetic activity.
Just being able to see the shift in what, in what's going on. Kind of looking at us in colors, right? Going from blue to green to red. And when this person was talking about children and spouse, there would be these spikes in vagal activity in the blue and high frequency spectral power. And pointing that out. Look, you may not consciously realize that connection, but your body is feeling it, your nervous system is experiencing it. Look, look, it's right there. And start talking about something else, you know, no longer socially connected and that vagal activity decreases. So just. And again, being able to point that out and, well, let's come back, you know, tell me a little more about, you know, the cute thing your child did or said this morning. And here we go. There is that vagal activity coming up again. So that mind body disconnect that. Christine, you were talking about needing to reconnect the bluetooth, even the colors align here very nicely.
Do I connect the Bluetooth alpha. Here I am with my family.
I don't feel the connection, but, oh, my body is experiencing. So let me look at that. Let me see what I'm actually noticing right now. There it is. I actually do feel connection. I'm oversimplifying, of course, but it did kind of happen like that. Being able to see that objective data on the screen in the moment helps people look at, well, what am I experiencing? The kinds of things that they wouldn't have noticed if they weren't prompted by the spectral display. And I so completely agree with you just how important social connection is.
[00:34:26] Speaker B: Thank you. I never thought of talking, you know, having these conversations about meaningful social connection wall hooked up and seeing the changes in the power spectrum that you described. So thank you.
[00:34:38] Speaker A: Awesome. So again, a question more for both of you to chew on is one of the things we've kind of talked about the relaxing, the recovery nature of mindfulness and resonance frequency breathing? Christine, I would love to get any thoughts you have on because peak performers want to perform at very high levels because usually they're in fields, sometimes with the military, literally the highest stakes you could possibly throw out there. But even for CEO's, for athletes, livelihoods, games, businesses, jobs are on the line for these people. And I would love to just get any of your thinking is using residents frequency not only as a recovery, but I wonder if you utilize, you know, the biofeedback to get people ready for those highly, you know, stressful events so they can bring that level of performance they want when the moments kind of at its peak requirements.
[00:35:51] Speaker B: Excellent question. So this is where I would have a discussion with the performer on how can we integrate this very important skill to decompress, to regulate, to recover, to rejuvenate, whatever word you want to pick. How can we integrate this into your daily routine and your daily performances? Where I found it helpful to integrate the breathing is during any time that there is a pause in a performance or a transition. So I talk a lot about how to integrate the breathing once we've acquired the skills. This is where your daily, you know, one to two times daily for ten to 20 minutes to acquire the skill to strengthen that parasympathetic nervous system, to deliberately stimulate that vagus nerve to improve our heart rate variability. Now that we've acquired the skill, then we're going to talk about integrating and inserting it in these key performance scenarios. So realistically, where you're going to integrate it is during a pause, a break in the action, or a transition.
I feel like these transitions are super, super important. And I mean, this is really can be applied anywhere. So let's think about, let's say, as you know, you mentioned CEO's or any type of leader in the executive environments. Let's say, like, you know, we've talked about sports outside of sport or outside the military.
We all have transitions throughout our life. I mean, it could be what's our transition from our car to when we enter the office in the morning? That is a transition. Or when we're transitioning. A lot of times we'll talk about when we're going from one meeting to the next meeting. There's a walk down the hall or in the elevator or, you know, from one building to the next, viewing these transitions as an opportunity to rest.
For rest, meaning let me reset. Whether it's a control altitude hitting the reset button, I need to recharge.
Maybe I'm going to hit the recharging booth, so to speak, as I'm walking from one meeting to the next. And that is an opportunity to integrate into your breathing. So maybe it's just five easy, low and slow breaths or ten easy, low and slow breaths. Actually, I think in another book I do recommend is in Lea Lagos heart, breath mind. I think she calls it like a power ten or a power five. Talking about integrating your breathing in there and that kind of gives me like, oh, okay. So instead of your mind spinning, you know, out of control or whether you're leaving one meeting and you're carrying those emotions with you into the next meeting, or if you're jumping ahead to the future and you're, you know, I mean, yes, we want to be prepped and have an idea of what we're about to walk into. But after we've prepped and we're ready to go, if we're still spinning out of control, worrying about the outcome of our next meeting, what conversation might, you know, might evolve. We're not truly in the present moment, and the present is where you're going to get your curiosity, your openness, your ability to observe and notice and. And pick up on the energy. So your breathing is a way to ground and center yourself before you go into that next meeting. So lots of, like, talking to integrated in the transitions and set an intention of how you want to be before you walk through the doors of that next performance, whether it's a meeting or whether it's, you know, jumping into the pool or stepping on a soccer field or jumping on a horse, whatever. Whatever your performance might be, I love it.
[00:39:28] Speaker A: And I love how you talk about it as a skill as well. Like, I really, you know, because mindfulness, for a lot of people, you know, I'm really hesitant. Like, just give me a minute. Just start there. Count your breath. You know, Ena's taught me how to teach healthy breathing to people. So, you know, you using those skills. But, you know, I've started, like, as a former basketball player, and I'm realizing ina that most of my analogies involve free throws at this point. So I need to. I need to diversify that. But it's like my mindfulness. My mindfulness practice is like shooting all those free throws outside the game, you know, to build up that skill set. And sometimes, honestly, it's kind of boring, right? I don't, like, get all juiced up to practice 20 minutes of mindfulness, but I do it because just like I practice free throws is when things get stressful. I've developed that skillset to bring that calm, that piece, that focus, you know, from my practice into that moment. So to build a tangible skill to try to help people understand, like, mindfulness is more than just sitting and breathing. There. There is that practical, powerful piece of things that the benefits that come along with it.
[00:40:50] Speaker B: And so, Matt, one thing I'll mention is formal versus informal practice. And, Nina, I remember during our mindfulness training, we talked about this a lot.
You know, formal practice may be sitting down with your breath pacer up, breathing out your resident frequency. But informal may be I'm walking the dog and allowing myself to slow down and really use all my senses and notice my surroundings and practice my breathing or just practicing my breathing without a breath pacer while driving. You know, just as I'm driving, I'm mindfully driving and going back into that. Low and slow breathing may not be perfect at your resident frequency, but it's going to be pretty darn close.
[00:41:28] Speaker C: Absolutely. Just taking the time to do that goes a very long way. Informal practice is hugely important. You know, meeting people where they are. Right. You know, you don't have five minutes, ten minutes to set aside. All right, let's, you know, take, know, five minutes where you're already doing something else and add this into it. And most of the time, people end up buying, buying in, and then they can set aside 510, 20 minutes a day. But to get their buy in first, you know, just integrate it into whatever it is that they're doing.
[00:41:59] Speaker A: Absolutely fascinating. Well, I love to ask all my guests these questions as we kind of wrap up, but now you've got a decade in the field, you're obviously working on the cutting edge with these peak performers as you look into the future as our technology, we've got rings, we've got straps, we've got patches you can put on. I used to think the military had probably access to all of these. And then I realized to get a device to the military takes, like, so much paperwork that, you know, it's about the hardest, you know, mailing I could possibly do is to send a bunch of readers to somebody working with the military. So on one hand, having a lot of access, on the other hand, you know, having some challenges there. I'd love to see, like, where you think this is going. How do you think in the next ten or so years, where do you think your work will go? What technology do you think will help support your work? Just love from your perspective to see where, where you think we're all going with this exciting field.
[00:43:13] Speaker B: Let's say one thing. I think just one of the, one of the outcomes of COVID was having it be more acceptable to do more virtual work. So one thing, I think it's fantastic that optimal HRV came out, and we have a very easy way to conduct heart rate variability biofeedback training with clients. And, I mean, I think that's, it's beautiful in the essence that it opens the doors for clinicians to work with people who, you know, may not be in their area. It allows clients to be able to get this training that may not have somebody trained in their area, but then also, I think in terms of working, whether it is a sports team, whether it is the military, or maybe just. Just very busy executives, I think being able to do high quality heart rate variability biofeedback training mobily is key because just like, you know, you have that consultant, that clinician to be able to check in with you weekly. You can do that, virtually have a discussion on what's, you know, how are you, you know, acquiring these skills? How are you integrating them into your daily life, getting some coaching on how to enhance and perfect the skill and tailor it to their unique situation. So the fact that you guys came up with it with a very valid and reliable mobile app to do the training, I think, is huge. And that opens doors because, you know, one challenge is when you work with, you know, a group of high performers and you'll see the same thing in the professional sport world. They are, their travel schedules are gone, and it's not realistic to be doing training in the office with, with the clinician. I think you'll see the same on professional sport. Maybe it's in their off season, but they actually have the time. And, you know, a lot of athletes, depending on the organization, may not want to wear biofeedback because that could be used possibly against them. So they might need to come on their own to you to do the training. And so you have this, you're allowing this to be, you know, confidential and done at a high quality. So I think that is really huge for, I think, the field. How can we do more mobile or virtual biofeedback training?
Second, I see, I, you know, I, with the wearables, I think we need high quality, reliable wearables if we're going to look at some of these data, or at least high quality measurements. We can look at descriptive trends, but in terms of security, making sure we have to make sure that these wearables are secure and they don't get hacked, because that is going to be huge for any type of organization, because we have to be very careful and mindful of the security and that data. So I think that's a huge one to tackle and work. But I think wearables are huge and very helpful for helping any performer become aware of these little habits and behaviors that we have that could be impacting our heart rate variability. Everything from the food that we eat to the liquids that we can consume, the adult beverages, to stress and our social connection. I think it can be very insightful, but too much can also, you know, what they call it, orthosomnia, where people become too obsessed and into their sleep, actually gets worse because they get anxiety about what does the data, what does the number mean. So I think really working through the wearables of being valid, but also working through some of the security concerns would be huge.
And then I think, you know, like I said, I've really been interested with integrating the respiratory chemistry, the capnography, with the heart rate variability, and a way to do that in mobile training. So if there was a way to capture heart rate variability, like, if the performer has a pause, like they're sitting or they're standing, but if we were able to kind of time capture some of these to see, hey, when you actually have a pause or a transition, how well can you reset once they're moving we can't reliably look at that data. But if there was a way, that would be. That would be interesting. But I think there's a lot of interesting stuff with capnography and integrating it with heart re variability.
[00:47:40] Speaker A: Very cool.
Questions or comments?
[00:47:45] Speaker C: Yeah, I don't have any final questions, just to echo. You know, I would love to have a, you know, mobile captometer. That would be amazing. And to have a device where you can measure HRV at the time of that reset so you can see, you know, like, you know, hit spacebar, you know, the way you can on the computer. Right. And mark it. You know, this was my HRV right before. This is when I took my breath. This is what happens right after. That would be such great feedback. And, you know, that one is technologically probably possible, you know, that we may be able to figure that out, you know, in a near future. Yeah.
[00:48:25] Speaker B: And that would be. So if we were to do something like that. You just triggered my memory. It can't be too cumbersome for the performer because then if it takes them out of their elements, it's not.
If it falls off, not helpful. If it's not reliable, if they sometimes get dared, they sometimes don't. That's not helpful. You're going to lose their rapport, lose their interest right away. So it needs to be very, very minimally invasive. It needs to be highly accurate, and then the ability to get those short moments. So, yes, my wish list.
[00:48:59] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's kind of unfortunate. Heart rate variability is so sensitive to movement and other things like that. If it was just a little bit more, I think we could do a lot more with it. But I love that idea that that just would be fascinating to see. And I think just so, especially for the population we're talking about. So, so important, insightful as well.
So I have one more fun question to wrap up our conversation. As I was looking at your bio to kind of prep for our talk, one thing that I just got to ask, how does somebody with a bachelor's in ocean engineering get into biofeedback and performance? I just had to ask how there must have been something that happened somewhere along the line that made you, I would imagine, do a pretty big career or academic shift. So just a fun question to kind of end on.
[00:49:59] Speaker B: Yes. Oh, thank you. Yes. That was pretty interesting. So, yes, I worked as an engineer for a few years after college, and I did undergo a pretty massive career change. Took a lot of guts and a lot of courage. So what interested me in it, I was a swimmer in a rower in college. And while I was swimming, I went to Virginia Tech. I swam a little bit at Virginia Tech, and I was kind of stuck in a performance lump. I was a brush stroker, and I was home swimming one summer break, back with my club team, grew up in the DC area, and we had a sports psychologist come speak with my club team back in the day. And so this wasn't even at Virginia Tech. And he kind of did a little talk for us. And I will admit I didn't really go in with the best attitude, you know, swimmer swim at 445 in the morning. So my thought was, I'll get to sleep a little bit more, practice will be shorter. But then as I was listening to him, I was like, wow, maybe this is. Maybe this is part of my problem. So I signed up for some sessions with him. I used, like, all of my summer lifeguarding money to go work with him. Saw him maybe three times before I went back to college, back to Virginia Tech, and had a huge impact on my swimming. I basically had a focus issue. I was highly distracted while I was swimming. What a surprise. And it made a huge. So just changing what I was focusing on when I was swimming made a drastic impact on my time. And he also helped me with the timing issue that I had. So basically, it was a lot of focus, attention control, queuing, and it made a huge impact on my swimming. And I was like, wow, what a cool job. Like, you take people's goals and dreams and you help make them a reality. That's really fascinating.
I didn't know if you could really find a full time job doing that. I was doing engineering at the time. And the more I realized I really enjoyed working with people because I was doing less coaching swimming, and I was less away from swimming and teen type stuff and more into my engineering internships. I was like, man, I really miss working with people. People more. And I really helped helping people accomplish their goals. And so I took a huge leap of faith and switched into sport and performance psychology.
[00:52:20] Speaker A: I love it.
[00:52:22] Speaker B: How cool.
[00:52:22] Speaker C: I did not. I did not. I have not heard this story. Thank you.
[00:52:26] Speaker A: Very cool. Well, Christine, I want to thank you so much.
We'll put a little bit of that interesting biology people or the bibliography people can find online in there, because your journey's been fascinating and your work is really inspiring, and I'm sure to be that person for other people now. Like that sports psychologist was for you. I can see your face just light up as you talk about that transition. So it has been an absolute joy to talk with you today. I really appreciate you. Appreciate you being part of the optimal family as well. It's a huge honor to support your work. So appreciate you. You're welcome back on the podcast anytime. Love to have you back. So always thank you to our listeners. You can find show notes, other
[email protected]. Dot Christine Ena, it was a total pleasure to talk to with you both. Appreciate both and all the work that you do.
[00:53:26] Speaker B: Thank you, Matt. Like I said, it's been an honor, true honor to be able to speak with both of you today. So thank you.
[00:53:32] Speaker C: Thank you, Christine.
