[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the heart rate variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast. For your informational use and not medical advice, please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart rate variability. Podcast is a production of optimal LLC and optimal HRV. Check us
[email protected].
[00:00:28] Speaker B: Please enjoy the show.
Welcome friends to the heart rate variability. Podcast. I am Matt with a very special guest today, Janae Spencer, who I have gotten to know through our shared colleague and big friend of the show, Dr. Hazan. So Janae and I have a lot in common and how we think about heart rate variability populations we think about bringing this to. And so I'm really happy to invite Janae to the show to talk about her work and journey with Heart Rate Variability in different aspects of her interest in occupation. So, Janae, welcome to the show, and I'd love for you just to introduce yourself to our audience.
[00:01:15] Speaker C: Thanks so much, Matt.
Yeah, my name is Janae, and I'm a licensed therapist, so LMHC or LPC, depending on what state you're in.
And man, I don't even want to say how long I've been licensed now, but well over a decade I've been in the field.
And it's interesting because I've been doing biofeedback and things for a few years now, but when people ask me where did it start, I always kind of have to think back a bit. But when I was in grad school, I remember going through getting a Master's in counseling, going through all the classes, and so much was focused on cognitive, therapies CBT, all of that. And don't get me wrong, I love all of that, but I even remember back then feeling like there was something more, like there was something healing wise, something that was missing within it.
And so after I graduated my residency, got into the field. It was only like, even five years into it, I started kind of coming back to that and being like, okay, what's here? Right? And I actually started with my own personal journey of just seeking out more holistic, alternative ways of keeping myself healthy. And through that, I came across all kinds of things, the biofeedback, all of that, and it just kind of spiraled from there and now is fully incorporated into my practice.
[00:02:55] Speaker B: So what was that process like for that? Incorporation? Because I think I got trained under a very similar cognitive behavioral sort of model as well. I also thought, even though, again, I'm a huge fan of CBT and the many variations of it, something kind of more out there. And I also found myself playing around with a lot of tech, looking for potential answers to those questions as well. So I would love to, from kind of that interest perspective, to integrating it into what you do professionally and helping people heal and adding technology to a holistic approach. Because sometimes we think I think holistic is yoga and I know is your interest of you, but hooking someone up to a bunch of wires might be a little counterintuitive to some folks. So I would love to hear more about how that interest turned into really developing that expertise professionally.
[00:03:58] Speaker C: I remember I went to so I'm a yoga teacher as well and I've been doing that for several years. It was part of that process of recognizing that mind body connection and how to incorporate into therapy. But I remember specifically, I went to a yoga class that was led by she was a yoga teacher, but also a psychologist. And she brought in someone who specialized in breath work. And it's crazy because after that session specifically, it just intrigued me because she was talking specifically about that connection with how we breathe, how we feel physically, emotionally, mentally. And so I actually scheduled a session to go meet with her and it turns out she was actually a psychiatrist that had been trained by Ena Hazan.
And I did not even know Ena at that time who I now work with, but she ended up just showing me resonant frequency. And all of that was so brand new to me at that time, but it intrigued me. And so I got my own resonant frequency and started practicing with it.
And I initially started doing getting training through heart mass, which I think a lot of people with biofeedback kind of start there. Yeah, and that's how I started incorporating it with my clients because I saw the benefit for myself, how it was really regulating, like I said, at every level. And so I started using it just like here and there with clients and kind of seeing how it worked.
Yeah, then it went from there, I started looking into it more and then got board certified in biofeedback and all of that.
[00:05:47] Speaker B: I'd love to some of your insights along the way, resonance frequency also being such a powerful force in kind of my own health and wellness journey as well.
As you started to integrate this into your therapeutic practice, what were some of the things that you saw integrating breath work into your therapeutic interventions?
[00:06:13] Speaker C: I remember right in the beginning, one of the clients that we used it with was younger. They were like in middle school and presenting with some anxiety around tests and school, things like that.
And so I would have typically worked with CBT, things like that. But we started using some heart rate variability and HeartMath stuff and there are specific games and things like that that are especially good with kids when they kind of see, oh, when I'm breathing slowly and regulating, getting into resonant frequency, all of a sudden that shifts my body.
And so they started using this technique in school and it radically changed how they felt around tests, how they were doing on tests, their anxiety around it.
And so that client in particular was a light bulb moment for me of like, wow, this really works. And it wasn't that we didn't incorporate all the other stuff. And that's what I'm so passionate about, is looking at things holistically. Let's look at it from every angle. And that body piece incorporating biofeedback was a huge piece that I saw shifted things.
[00:07:36] Speaker B: Yeah. And I wonder, bringing in with your work, with yoga as well, how does that sort of inform that holistic approach? Because it sounds like you've got the talk therapy more traditional background, bringing in the breathing biofeedback pieces and then this ancient which breath work is, but we weren't always connecting people to wires. The ancient practice of yoga into this just kind of how does that fit in with your overall thinking about human health psychology?
[00:08:15] Speaker C: Yeah, I started doing yoga again. A lot of it just starts personally for me, how I used it, but I started going to yoga pretty regularly and just found it was very centering for me. And the more I was researching and reading about the mind body connection, I was like, I should just become a yoga teacher and see how to incorporate this, what it would look like, and then getting trained in trauma sensitive yoga and all of that. But what I've realized, there's a lot of good things about it, but in yoga it incorporates some of the main things that are really balancing to the nervous system, one of them being the breath. Even though we might not be practicing resonant frequency in a yoga class, we're intentionally slowing the breath that balances the nervous system. There's also that practice of mindfulness and being present and in the moment that is very calming as well. And then of course, releasing of the muscles, like when we're letting go in the muscles, it's sending a signal to the brain saying, hey, we're okay, we're safe, we don't have to be in stress mode.
So I've seen in my practice with yoga specifically how people experience that balance of the nervous system in a slightly different way, but still kind of getting that benefit.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: So I think for a lot of our listeners, the idea of maybe heart rate variability, biofeedback, app based biofeedback, probably something that's familiar or at least of interest, they probably Googled a few things along the way to find us here at the Heart Rate Variability podcast. But not all of our listeners have experienced what going into a biofeedback practitioner office would be like. So I wonder, I'm sure it looks different depending on the diagnosis, but could you kind of walk me through, let's say, hey, I may be struggling with a little anxiety, this or the other, maybe nothing too severe, but I'm looking to improve my mental health. And I reach out to you.
What should I expect as I engage with a biofeedback practitioner what would people expect when they start to work with you in that professional capacity?
[00:10:44] Speaker C: Yeah, that's a really good question. I tend to incorporate biofeedback more in the beginning because if my nervous system is better balanced and optimized then any work we do on an emotional level and a cognitive level is just going to be more effective and I will often share that with people the first time we meet. Of course it's up to them but if we can kind of get that process going we can figure out what biofeedback techniques would be most helpful for them then from there we can kind of build on it. So in our practice, we do full stress profile. So not only looking at heart rate variability, but skin conductance, temperature, respiration, CO2 levels, EMG for muscle tension. And we spend a whole session just doing a stress profile that looks at how is your body responding to stress, how is it recovering and coming back down, really getting down to the nitty gritty of maybe what we can do to help optimize that.
[00:11:53] Speaker B: Love that love that so we'll do.
[00:11:55] Speaker C: A sessions like that and then as they begin to feel different see differences bringing in the CBT bringing in the processing and everything thing else and where.
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Do you see and this? May be just a too specific question to be generalized, but once you are seeing the biometrics improve, which is what I love about the work that we get to do is getting that quantitative data, what's going on underneath the skin, helping to regulate that nervous system.
How do you see that as you've integrated biofeedback as such a central focus to what you do?
How does that make then CBT maybe a different experience from a professional standpoint then you're helping people maybe contemplate behavioral change or changes in thinking what's the difference of having that sort of foundation of biofeedback already there before embarking on that part of the healing journey.
[00:13:03] Speaker C: Yeah so I really feel that everything we experience in life impacts us at every level. So how we think, how we view things, how we interpret things I always have this imagery of like everyone on this planet has a specifically set of colored glasses. They see this world through by what they've experienced right? And that has an impact, how we think, how we feel and our body. And so, so many times when people are presenting in my office, there's been a history of trauma or chronic anxiety, chronic stress, and all of these things have likely thrown off their nervous system functioning. And so even if they're not experiencing it right now, their body may be acting as if they're currently experiencing it. And we've learned that with trauma, we live more in hyper vigilance, all of that. And so it's really hard to if my heart starts to beat a little bit faster, to just say, oh, you're fine, when all of a sudden it starts beating and going crazy. Like, I can't just cognitively tell myself that. But if I begin to slow down the heart rate, then I can think more clearly. I can respond more logically. And so that's why I just think it's such an important tool. If I've had a history of things that have thrown off my nervous system, what can I do to balance that so that then I can process things a little bit differently.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: Yeah, and it's that whole like where I'm just so fascinated having graduating with my master's back in 2000 where we've come just with the understanding of we were dealing with so much psychology was so theoretical and much that we didn't have the neurobiology really. It was just coming to the surface. I think I heard the amygdala said once in my graduate work. Now I'm assuming it's probably it has to be. Yeah, you probably got a class in it first semester of that piece. And it's just like with those wire, the glasses. You're talking about like how much our biology is really working with our psychology.
We put these labels on this, but it's that holistic system. And for me, what I get so excited about with the work that you're doing is trauma treatment can be so difficult. And I just love what the biofeedback people like yourselves are really looking at is how do we help resource people building some resiliency and regulation?
Maybe before we dive into the deeper issues, whether that's trauma, whether that's even substance use or other things along those lines is we're really giving people that resource of regulation, which can happen in therapy as well. However, I just see it's like, I don't know, lack of that better analogy that I know our list is it's taking your gym, your parasympathetic ventral vagal to the gym on steroids.
It just strengthens that in a way that then therapy can be I don't know, I don't want to say it just like boosted or makes it quicker because a lot of times healing needs to play out in its own way. But what a great supplement.
And that doesn't even seem like a strong enough word sometimes to use.
[00:16:52] Speaker C: Yeah, the analogy I'll often use when I'm talking about heart rate variability with clients is if I go to the grocery store and I am starving, I am likely to be irritated with the guy in front of me who's not moving his cart. I'm going to make impulse buys. I'm going to grab a candy bar and eat it along the way. Right.
Versus if I go to the grocery store full and satisfied, I'm facing the same stressor either way. But if my baseline heart rate variability, my nervous system is optimized better for me, I'm just going to be able to handle it differently. And that's what I think the power of biofeedback and heart rate variability and doing that work at a body level.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: Is, I love that's so much better than going to a gym on steroids. I like that.
I will credit you with that analogy because I've been looking for a new one. I love that because it does allow you, like I said, that resource, that safety that we're really helping build through the biofeedback pieces. It's just such a potentially life changing again that the grocery store analogy is perfect about still, you've got those stressors to face in therapy. It may not change the outlying issues that brought you in, but just that you're in a different state in which to address those, which I think for so many people who just have had that Dysregulation for so long, it can feel life changing just in of itself.
[00:18:37] Speaker C: Yeah, because it's like when you don't have that awareness of what's going on at a body level, there's a lot of self blame that goes into that or why can't I just fix this? Why do I always respond this way?
And when there's that recognition of, oh, my body is literally functioning like this and there's something I can do about it, it's one so empowering and then over time, it's just like, oh, okay, I can respond differently. That's really awesome.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: I love that. So you strike me as someone getting to know you that's kind of always looking too like, what can I do to build my expertise grow? Where do you see as you have integrated biofeedback into your practice? Where do you see kind of yourself going? Where do you see now that you've been doing this for a while, working with our good friend Dr. Hazan?
Where do you kind of see your path taking you from here? Somebody again who strikes me as always looking at, okay, now what? Now? What do I master?
[00:19:46] Speaker C: Yes, I am definitely that way.
I love the clinical work. And one thing that always gets me is, okay, these people are presenting in my office, especially like, with trauma, but a lot of different things people reach out for biofeedback. I find a lot of times as a last resort, like they've done different things and it hasn't worked. Or we see a lot of through health psychology, like a lot of chronic pain, migraines, things like that. And they've gone to every doctor and they've been told nothing's wrong with them, all of those things. And so what I often see is by the time I sit down with them, these patterns are so set in and it takes some time to work through them. And it's really built up a passion in me to see more preventative systems being built. Like, what can we do right at the beginning, whether it's larger scale, like disaster relief or things like that, or just in schools or wherever, what can we do to, one, provide these type of skills when they're young, coming all the way up? Or two, when something does happen, bring it in right away so it doesn't get stuck in the body. And so that's kind of where I want to go with it. And also in a private practice, therapy, individual therapy is not cheap, right.
I want to make it more available, more widespread, more equitable in general. So, yeah, those are the two areas that I'm kind of looking at right now.
[00:21:30] Speaker B: I love that. Again, our listeners know that that equitable piece of it is such a huge passion of mine to just make sure that everybody has access to this science and we don't, like said, don't develop another health inequity because we got enough of those we're dealing with already in our country.
Let's not let this one get out of control.
The one thing that struck me as you were talking is in the biofeedback space, one of the things I've seen is it's very academic, I would say, and I don't mean that in any negative way.
I think that's reflected a lot on this podcast is we have brilliant thinkers from around the world who I'm lucky enough to interview. And yet as you're talking, I'm like, well, how do we ensure that no child graduates middle school without knowing their residence frequency breathing rate? There is something there because once we identify it, then it's really you can get a pacer for free on the App Store. So it's just like, how do we get out of our own box in some ways and get this to the masses in a way that's affordable, but also that somebody does have that tool. So when they hit a hard time or they just are prepping for their first interview or shoot a free throw in a basketball game or ready to take a big test, that they have this skill set already built up that struck me when you were saying that is, where is the work on our side to really help it get there? So I love that you said that piece of things in some ways.
[00:23:31] Speaker C: Come on. I know when I was in school, there was no psychosocial education, anything like this.
So I think we're slowly getting there, incorporating yoga, maybe some breath, some mindfulness, but I think there's so much more.
[00:23:48] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely.
[00:23:51] Speaker C: With heart rate variability.
[00:23:52] Speaker B: Right? I mean, that's the thing. I think that the biofeedback folks could really add to this because I know, like, having my wife as a second grade teacher, psychosocial education, I mean, we wrote a book on the topic, so important. And schools are depending on your district and depending on words like what you're saying versus what. But that understanding that a Dysregulated nervous system is not going to succeed in the classroom and all those different approaches, but really helping people bring the science that we're so passionate about into ways that can really benefit youth growing up from a younger age, I think there's a huge opportunity there. And the younger you get, the more comfortable they are with the technology too. So we're not talking about folks that when they hit third or fourth grade, most of them are probably better than I am with the technology side of things.
[00:25:00] Speaker C: Yeah, for sure.
I completely agree. I think the biofeedback community in general, we can start going outward more out of just clinical practice and things like that, into schools, into shelters, into different areas that may not have that access. And I know optimal is really starting with that, which is awesome, kind of creating programs and yeah, I think growing that is going to be huge.
[00:25:31] Speaker B: Maybe we can start the advocacy arm of AAPB. I don't know.
[00:25:35] Speaker C: That would be amazing.
[00:25:39] Speaker B: As their unofficial cheerleader, I won't call us their podcast because they haven't signed up for that. But yeah, I think we should start the advocacy committee right here.
So I always like to ask my guests this where do you see us progressing into the future? Technology is only getting cheaper, better in your own practice? I mean, we've talked about I know we share a passion of getting this into populations who may not have been the focus of biofeedback or had access to it financially before.
Where do you look 510 years into the future?
Where do you see some of your passions being realized? What are some of maybe your hopes and aspirations for the biofeedback field?
[00:26:36] Speaker C: That's a good question.
I would really like to see it just so much more normalized. Like it is just like an obvious technique that you would use right now. It's more of a luxury or something that you have to really seek out and find.
But like you said, with technology and things being so much more readily available, I think right now it's more us doing the work of getting it out there and of educating and of showing.
I know, like just teaching yoga classes, I talk a lot about the regulation and the breath and all of that and it always amazes me because I'm in it every day my life, but it always amazes me by how much people don't know. Right.
It's there. We just need to get it out there. And so, yeah, I would just love it to I don't know what other word to say, but just it be normalized in the schools, in whatever it is. I think about more of the nonprofits that do more like public health, international work, and just having a whole arm that addresses at a body level what is happening with trauma. What can we do right away? How can we train paraprofessionals to be able to use these skills and train people to use them?
When it comes down to it, it's simple work, it's simple to train.
So yeah, that's kind of where I see it.
[00:28:14] Speaker B: Yeah, I think you see everything as we record this. The world is spinning into chaos, if it wasn't already spinning into chaos.
But I feel like we have such I don't know, we have such knowledge that can help folks who are in these. I just see people sitting know as we record this, and I know it'll be a few hopefully the world is at peace by the time this is published. But what's going on in Israel at the Egyptian border with people just sitting there?
Could we help?
Could we give them a resource? Not that everybody wants to sit and breathe at the residents frequency breathing rate, but if they did or if they have children that they want help, I think to have every 1000 therapists come in probably not practical right now, even though definitely needed, but could we get some resources in there? And I just think biofeedback, as the information about the nervous system grows, it can really be a part of that mental health first aid that's become so prevalent in social services, social work psychology.
I just believe this is like you give somebody first aid, you leave them with a bandage. Is this something we could leave folks with to just give them a resource through these heartbreaking traumatic times with that, again, it's almost a first aid until we can get the stability and hopefully get connected to more help that they might need. But it just seems like, boy, we've got the skills, we're getting the price points to where they're really affordable for people too.
[00:30:17] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. All that.
[00:30:20] Speaker B: So if people want to find out, we'll put obviously information in the show notes. But if people want to find out more about your work, where may they find you?
[00:30:32] Speaker C: I'm currently practicing. I'm in Boston. So working at Boston Health Psychology, right.
Yeah, we see clients there. I also do like I volunteer with some of the yoga in the community and teach yoga as well in a studio here in Boston. So, yeah, there's a few different ways, but we also do telehealth as well. So if you're not in the Boston area but are interested in what we do, definitely reach out.
[00:31:04] Speaker B: There you go. So thank you so much. This has been a great interview. It's been such a pleasure to get to know you and your work more and more. I know got a few things in the works, so once we find our project to work on together, we'll have to have you back and talk about doing and realizing some of this impact that we want to have on the world. So thank you so much and I look forward to having you back in the future.
[00:31:35] Speaker C: Thanks so much, Matt.
