[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the heart rate variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast. For your informational use and not medical advice, please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart rate variability. Podcast is a production of optimal LLC and optimal HRV. Check us
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Welcome friends to the heart rate variability. Podcast. I am Matt, back here with my good friend Dr. Ina Hazan. Ena, how are you doing today?
[00:00:41] Speaker B: I'm doing well. Thanks so much for having me back, Matt.
[00:00:44] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, I'm excited to I'm kind of glad we're hitting the hundreds of episodes now because there was one chapter in, your know, one of the ways that I was introduced to your great work on the idea of temperature biofeedback. And I guess, as our listeners know, I get fascinated if it relates to me. And I feel like as I do my morning resonance frequency breathing practices, I sometimes even work up a sweat, which question mark, why? It's kind of gross. So I don't know if you can solve that problem for me, but I've been fascinated ever since reading that chapter in your book and let me do a plug for Biofeedback and Mindfulness in Everyday living everyday Life. Sorry, I'm looking at it right on myself. Biofeedback and mindfulness in everyday Life by Dr. Ina Hazan. Great book that is, I think, just such a gift to the world. So I want to kind of start out just with temperature biofeedback, question mark, what are we talking about here? And relating this to heart rate variability as well.
[00:02:02] Speaker B: Yeah, so temperature is probably one of the earliest biofeedback methods. Skin conductance, which I know we'll talk about at some point, is the earliest, but temperature probably comes right after that. The idea is that we actually have a fair amount of influence over our peripheral temperature. Right? So we're talking about temperature of the fingers, toes, nose, ears.
We're not talking about core body temperature. I think that's an important distinction to make.
Your core body temperature, which needs to stay around that 98.6 degrees, is different. And then there's peripheral body temperature, which for your fingers needs to be somewhere between 88 and 95 degrees. So quite a bit lower than your core body temperature. Your toes can be even a little bit cooler than that, 85 to 93 degrees Fahrenheit. And we have a fair bit of influence for people who often have cold hands, and there are a lot of people who do that, right? There are a lot of people walk around with cold hands, and many of them don't really give it a second thought, but it actually tells us something about the functioning of their autonomic nervous system.
So for people whose fingers are cold, a lot of the time, it means that their blood vessels are constricted.
And that indicates an overly activated stress system, right? So the sympathetic part of the nervous system is overly activated, constricting the blood vessels and lowering the body temperature. And then if we're going to relate that back to HRV, it means that there is a Dysregulation in the autonomic nervous system, right? It means that sympathetic is not being regulated properly through the self regulatory mechanism and there may be an issue with harder variability as well.
[00:04:09] Speaker A: So I imagine there's a good portion of our listeners are like, oh, wait a minute, my hands, my feet get cold, are always cold. So I just kind of want to rewind that because I think that's a real fascinating thing with this.
Do we have a genetic set point? Is everybody with cold hands sort of maybe having a Dysregulation in the autonomic nervous system for those that might find themselves in that category of cold hands? People, I think that'd be half my friends that I think of. How should people kind of think about this? Is this a sign that's kind of universal about Dysregulation genetic?
What should people be thinking?
[00:05:02] Speaker B: I'm actually not sure about the genetic component. I mean, I think everything has a genetic component.
There probably is because this has to do with the way that your beta adrenergic receptors are functioning. And we're not going to get into that nitty gritty.
But those beta adrenergic receptors have to do with our sympathetic nervous system functioning and they can be overly activated. Typically these receptors get activated when we're either cold, like out in the snow, or with emotional stimulation, with stress, with difficult emotions, et cetera. So let me just say that all of us at some point have the experience of having cold hands. And that does not mean that there is a problem. And we can talk about kind of the mechanism in there and why that happens as part of absolutely normal functioning. And then there are people who have chronically cold hands for whom or feet. It's just like my hands are always cold. Does it mean that you have a big problem? Well, no. I mean, it's certainly not helpful to talk about anything in absolute terms, but there may be a correlation. I sometimes perform a bit of a magic trick if somebody comes to me with migraines, right? They have frequent migraines and I ask them, how do you happen to have cold hands?
And they go, how did you know that? Yeah, no actual magic. But there is a very strong correlation between chronically cold hands and migraines. And people don't connect that. People who have a lot of anxiety will also often have cold hands. And the reason for it is because both of these experiences are due to this Dysregulation in the autonomic nervous system, right? So the people have anxiety and migraines and high blood pressure and other things. Their nervous system is not regulating itself properly. And that results in sympathetic nervous system being overly activated, constricting your blood vessels and lowering your finger temperature. So it's not that your cold hands are causing your migraines or anxiety, but they are both related to the same mechanism.
And I guess the good news is by teaching people to warm their hands, dilate their blood vessels, we can actually make a difference in things like migraines and anxiety. Because through teaching people to warm up their hands, we are teaching self regulation in similar ways as we do with heart rate variability. Just targeting a different aspect of the physiology.
[00:07:59] Speaker A: Fascinating. So we see additional sympathetic activation, I'm assuming bringing in all the vocab words we've had on these episodes over the years now where we're probably seeing less activation of the vagal brach. Would that be something that we could see related to that cold hands as well? Or are we just talking about I know just talking about sympathetic is probably way too oversimplified, but are we seeing ventral vagal activity as a measure of the warmth of your hands as well?
[00:08:37] Speaker B: Sort of not directly.
Our blood vessel diameter is regulated by sympathetic nerves only. So there is no parasympathetic innervation in your peripheral blood vessels. So this is what I mean by sort of your vagal nerve is the parasympathetic nervous system, right? And there is no parasympathetic innervation of the peripheral blood vessels. So as vagal nerve activity increases, there is often a shift towards dilated blood vessels and a lowering of the sympathetic nervous system. But it's indirect.
We actually need to decrease the sympathetic activation in order for the blood vessels to dilate and figure temperature to increase. So this is one of those situations where there is not a direct pathway to the vagal nerve.
[00:09:41] Speaker A: All right, so help me put some of the pieces because I know a few of our listeners are going to reach out to me if I don't ask this question is I was assuming and maybe I've been using the wrong language, so this will be great for our listeners as well. Taking this journey with me is I was sort of thinking is that what we were learning fairly recently is like the sympathetic doesn't necessarily get more or less active, the vagal brake gets more or less active. But it sounds like and maybe we're talking about maybe that's a heart rate variability system versus a temperature system where there may not be sympathetic activation and impacting heart rate variability, but there might be in temperature. Are we talking about two different aspects of the sympathetic or am I just kind of way off in outer space at this point?
[00:10:46] Speaker B: You're definitely not way off in outer space. This is a slightly obviously everything is connected, but our sympathetic nervous system does have its own mechanisms that are not directly related to the vagal nerve. So these beta adrenergic receptors do function independently.
[00:11:12] Speaker A: Fascinating.
[00:11:13] Speaker B: When the parasympathetic nervous system activity increases, and we're relaxed. It will absolutely work to decrease sympathetic, help our hands to warm up. So oftentimes with people who have cold hands, the first line of intervention is to teach heart durability breathing. And often one of the side effects of HIV breathing is warmer hands. So there's absolutely a relationship, but it's not as direct as actually you might see with heart chapter ability. Because with the heart, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic are both playing.
They're both playing in the field, right? They're both there. With your blood vessels, there is only sympathetic activation. It does respond to parasympathetic activity, but it's also separate. So it is actually possible for the beta adrenergic for these receptors to become overactive or they also have a tendency to have a harder time decreasing their activation for people who tend to have cold hands.
And that's not directly related to parasympathetic. Right. It does have its own activity.
[00:12:36] Speaker A: Fascinating. So in some ways with temperature biofeedback, which we'll start to define what that is, you're maybe regulating something slightly different, yet related to heart rate variability biofeedback. All right, I'm getting a head nod from Eno.
I'll take that very cool.
I'm assuming kind of I'm pushing this to like I usually do a degree that's probably unpractical and not necessarily scientific, but if I'm doing heart rate variability biofeedback, if I add temperature biofeedback to it, it's probably, let's say, because when I think about sympathetic activation, I'm thinking about maybe more anxiety disorders.
Whereas I'm like, oh, I could just work on different, slightly different part of the sympathetic system if I'm doing temperature versus HRV biofeedback. But my assumption is I'm probably getting benefits from both of those in kind of the same way. For my issue of anxiety, am I close to being on a correct page there?
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Yes, very much so. There is definitely a benefit to incorporating various modalities of biofeedback in general, temperature in particular, because it hits that slightly different side that doesn't get directly affected by the parasympathetic activity. So with something like anxiety, because anxiety is actually very well regulated through HRV biofeedback. But if somebody is prone to anxiety and they tend to have cold hands, we'll start with HRV biofeedback and it's likely going to help them a whole lot. But let's say their fingers are still cold some of the time. Much of the time they will probably see an improvement in finger temperature with HRV biofeedback, but the cold hands may not resolve completely.
And then let's say anxiety benefits from HRV biofeedback, but there is still some work to do. So this is where you can bring in temperature biofeedback. So you're getting, again at self regulation in a slightly different way and you're going to benefit from both. It will just going to help improvement go further along. And this is particularly likely with migraines and with people who have high blood pressure. So with migraines, because constricted and overly dilated blood vessels are such a big part of the migraine process. It's not the cause, but it's part of the migraine process. Again, we might start with HIV biofeedback, but a lot of people who have migraines also have cold hands, and the cold hands may not get completely resolved through HRV biofeedback. So this is where we're going to add temperature biofeedback to further improve migraine symptoms. And in our clinic, that is often what we end up doing with high blood pressure. Similarly, your blood pressure is regulated actually through two mechanisms. One is through the heart rate.
Your blood pressure and the heart rate are directly related, right? As your blood pressure increases, your brain sends a signal to the heart to decrease the heart rate and the force of contractions in order to decrease your blood pressure. And then, as your blood pressure decreases, your brain sends a signal to increase your heart rate and increase the force of contractions, raising your blood pressure. So there is that loop, and then there is the vascular loop. And a lot of your blood pressure regulation happens through those small peripheral blood vessels. So as your blood pressure increases, the brain sends a signal for the blood vessels to dilate, thereby decreasing the blood pressure. And as your blood pressure decreases, the brain sends a signal for your blood vessels to constrict, thereby increasing the blood pressure. So there is the vascular loop. And for people who have high blood pressure, when their fingers get cold, when their blood vessels constrict, it raises their blood pressure. So there's a very direct relationship between cold hands and increased blood pressure. And with heartability bifec, we are working on that cardiovascular loop. And then we can add the thermal biofeedback to work on the vascular loop, and both will benefit the high blood pressure problem.
[00:17:28] Speaker A: So, when you're doing biofeedback in your office, are you looking at temperature as well as heart rate variability, or are you running separate different sessions or exercises for those? Or is that all kind of feeding in to what you're paying attention to with the technology?
[00:17:49] Speaker B: When we see somebody for the first time in our clinic, we run something called a stress profile, where we hook up all the modalities that we have access to heart rate, archivability temperature, skin conductance, muscle tension breathing, and all of it. And we get an idea of how is this person's nervous system overall functioning at neutral times and mildly stressful times and recovery times.
And we'll also do a relaxation profile to see what happens when the person is giving such a chance to relax. How do all these areas of physiology respond? So those assessments give us a good overview of what's going on with the person, and we're very likely to catch their cold hands involved at baseline, when the people are stressed, do the cold hands resolve during recovery or not, et cetera. So we get a pretty good idea of what's happening and that points us to which modalities of biofeedback we're going to employ in which water, and we usually use that as a jumping off point. And then once we get going, we're only going to use the modalities that are indicated by the person's profile as well as through research. Right now, we always use both empirical data and the person's individual data to formulate their training plan. So if we know we'll be doing HIV and temperature together, we might start on HRV first and we might be monitoring the temperature because, as I mentioned, it will change as a result of HIV biofeedback. And then as the person has a good hang of HIV practice, we'll switch our attention more to thermal biofeedback. And at that point, they likely see an improvement in temperature already and we'll kind of finish it up with a more specific focus on temperature.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Love that. So the bad thing about temperature heart rate variability is it's incredibly expensive or not to practice at home. So one of the things that I loved about this chapter of the book is that it's something that's pretty much I don't know if there's a cheaper form of biofeedback, but if somebody wanted to practice at home and they don't have fancy equipment, what might be a good way for them to kind of test this out? I know maybe not the most scientifically, not the most data driven way, but in the book I loved one of the activities that you gave for people to really do this for maybe just a couple of pennies.
[00:20:29] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I'll answer that question first, and then I'll give an example of a more scientific, but still financially responsible way to do so. The fun and inexpensive way is to use you know, this is actually a practice that I learned from Dr. Eric Pepper. I did not make this up, but I loved it when I first heard it from Know. So you can use different kinds of chocolate because, well, chocolate melts when you hold it in your hands. We probably all have an experience of sticky chocolatey hands if we hold a chocolate candy too long.
And dark chocolate, milk chocolate, and white chocolate melt at different temperatures. So white chocolate melts at the lowest temperatures, then milk and then dark chocolate is the hardest to melt. So it's not a very precise instrument, but it's delicious and it's fun and it's cheap and could be a nice thing to do with children, too. If you know your hands are quite cold, you might start with a piece of white chocolate and using your mind and kind of warming techniques that we can talk a little bit about melting that white chocolate. So that's kind of your first stage. And then the second stage is you're going to melt some milk chocolate, and then as your final challenge, you're going to melt some dark chocolate. Dark chocolate tends to melt closer. It's like about 90 degrees. And that's what we want. We want to teach people to raise their finger temperature to about 95, 95 degrees. So dark chocolate is again, not very precise, but it's going to get us pretty close to that goal.
[00:22:16] Speaker A: Love that. And hey, we're probably looking at the first week of October when we release this. So there's probably a lot of Halloween candy out there that people can get one of those sampler packs for. So great timing with this episode is probably bags of this. I was at Costco the other day and I'm pretty sure you could do a hundred or so biofeedback practices getting one of those Costco bags. So let's shift into what you mentioned. Got, I got the piece know, of course you know me. I'm going to go for the dark chocolate because I want to eat it afterwards and not doing dairy. I need that dark chocolate. How the heck do I get that to warm up now that I know cold hands. And as somebody who suffers occasional migraines, including one yesterday, this is very timely for me. So I got a piece of chocolate in my hand.
Now what am I going to do to get that thing to start to melt?
[00:23:25] Speaker B: So since you are a very seasoned HRV practitioner, I would start with doing some HRV breathing and see what happens because that's obviously a good way to engage your parasympathetic nervous system and that will have an effect on your blood vessels. But then another way to do this is to come up with your image of warmth.
And that's going to be a different thing for different people. For some people it's being on the beach, sitting out in the warm sun. For other people it's being in a snowed in ski cabin in front of a warm fire wrapped in a blanket or holding a warm cup of cocoa or whatever beverage you'd like to have in there. So spend a little time thinking of what image to you says warmth. It's going to be different things. And sometimes people come up with images that really are just really unique to them. So there is no right or wrong. Whatever your image of warmth might be, that's what it is. For me. It's often kind of curling up on the couch in a blanket with my dog because she is really warm and she never has cold hands.
So whatever that image might be and then giving yourself permission to just focus on that image. And this is the tricky part. We don't want the focus on are my hands warming up or am I doing this right?
Just sitting on your beach in your ski cabin with your pet, with your loved one, with your cup of warm beverage and just letting yourself sink into that image, giving your hands permission to do whatever they want because temperature is very vulnerable to effort, because your blood vessels are innervated by sympathetic nerves only right? And guess what? Effort is sympathetic activity, right? So as soon as you try raising your finger temperature, as soon as you go to is this working? Am I doing this right?
Is my finger temperature rising? All of that is effort. Your sympathetic activity increases and your blood vessels constrict. Interesting. So that's not what we want. That's counterproductive. So the idea is to focus on the process, not the outcome. Giving your hands permission to do whatever they're going to do, giving that piece of chocolate permission to melt or not to melt. It's going to do what it's going to do and for you to just really stay with your image of warmth or with your breath, if that's what you're doing. Again, it's the same process. And give it a few minutes to start with. Sometimes when people have really cold hands, it can take 20 minutes for hands to warm up.
But obviously you're not going to start with a 20 minutes practice. Give it a couple of minutes, see what happens, and then, as needed, gradually increase that practice. And as you get the hang of it, you'll actually be able to warm up your hands much quicker. But initially, you might need to increase the time before being able to go back to a much quicker practice. But those two are my go to breathing or your image of warmth. That tends to do the trick for most people.
[00:27:00] Speaker A: And I'm sure you could probably put your resonance frequency with, I always need something for my brain to chew on anyway, or it'll go out into outer space in the way it does. So probably bringing those two things together, if somebody is, I think especially for us that have been doing resonance frequency breathing for years now, throwing that visualization on top of that, I assume, would be an okay practice to do for folks.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Absolutely.
You can start out with a couple of minutes of resonance frequency breathing just to get your body into that familiar rhythm and then bring in your image of warmth. And if resonance frequency breathing rate is familiar, your body is likely to kind of stay in it already where you might have that pacer kind of in the background to every not once in a while check in and then really bring your attention to the image of warmth.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Awesome. So are there any, like, one of the things, as you were talking about and I love the chocolate idea, I love that. But just is there any, like I'm thinking I think somewhere in my HRV device drawer I might have a pulse oximeter that does temperature for us geeks out there that always like to quantify it maybe more than melting chocolate.
Are there other simple sort of hacks to check this out? Any other suggestions? If somebody wants to sort of look at collecting more quantifiable data on a temperature biofeedback practice?
[00:28:48] Speaker B: Yeah, temperature is your cheapest biofeedback modality in a lot of ways. So many people have probably seen mood rings and those dots that you put on your hand.
It's pretty crude and probably about as accurate as chocolate. Maybe a tiny bit better, but they work right. Again, it's not going to be terribly precise, but it will give you an idea of what's going on with your hands. Both the mood rings and those dots, and those are very inexpensive, so you could do that. If you do want to get precise data, there are digital thermometers that are designed to just tape on your finger or hold between your fingertips. I do think that taping it with paper tape, it just makes your life easy. You don't have to sit there pinching the thermistor. But there is a device called the stress thermometer. If you enter that into Amazon, for example, it's about $25.
It has a nice digital display. It's quite precise. It doesn't record any data, but it displays your temperature very accurately. It's inexpensive upgrade. And a friend of mine, Dr. Chris Gilbert, actually put me onto an even cheaper way to do this aquarium thermometers.
It's a plastic digital display that gets clipped on your aquarium. And it has this long wire with a thermostat at the end that would go into the water. So it actually looks very similar to this human stress thermometer. And they're quite accurate and they're even less expensive. They're under $10 and I have one of them. It works, so why not?
[00:30:33] Speaker A: Awesome.
[00:30:33] Speaker B: It's the aquarium thermometer. Just make sure that it's the kind that has the wire with a thermostat at the end so you can tape it to your finger.
Cheap, accurate, easy to get.
[00:30:46] Speaker A: To start to wrap us up here, let's say I've got the aquarium thermometer on.
I'm visualizing warmth. It's me, so I probably have the pastry in the background. So I got this going on.
I know I'm going to use a word that I know you probably won't like, so you can reframe it, but what am I looking for success wise? Am I looking for a degree? Two degrees, is it? Shut up, Matt, and be in the moment. You're just ruining it.
What am I sort of as somebody who may pick up one of these or has a $10 thermometer hanging around the house, what am I sort of looking for? Because the chocolate melting is kind of a tangible thing. You can feel if I'm looking at temperature, is there sort of like I'm sure there's baselines and a lot of things, but what am I, as the average person, maybe looking for? As? Hey, I can see this is really having metric, because I imagine just holding my fingers together probably creates a little warmth. Just with my fingers together, I would think maybe. So am I looking for a couple of degrees increase over ten minutes? What am I looking for?
[00:32:03] Speaker B: So, great question. And when the time is right, it's very important. Right.
I don't want people thinking about this during the practice. That's the shut up mad task.
But afterwards, absolutely. You're absolutely right. We do want to know the outcome.
That's why bifec is so wonderful, is we actually get quantifiable outcomes. So the general aim, like where we're going with this, is 95 degrees Fahrenheit. We want to be able to, during the practice, warm up the hands to 95 degrees about three quarters of the time. About 70% of the time. Now, your hands don't have to be at 95 degrees all the time. Let me just make that clear. They won't be, and that's okay. But for the practice, about 70% of your practices over time getting to that 95 degree mark. Research shows that people who are working on various symptoms like anxiety and Raynaud's disease and migraines and high blood pressure, in order to see improvement, it's important to learn how to hit that 95 degree mark. So that's the ultimate goal. The typical range of normal, quote unquote, finger temperature is between 88 and 95 degrees. So we kind of generally, most of the time want to be in that range. And for people who are starting off with finger temperature, that's lower.
The colder your hands, the harder it is to warm them up. So if someone is starting with hands in the 60s, which happens particularly for folks who have Raynauds disease, so 60s is cold.
What was that disease again? That sounds Raynaud's disease. It's when the blood flow to the fingers and toes and nose, ears kind of gets really constricted and say the fingers turn colors, they turn white and blue and red. And that's quite painful and not a fun experience. People who have Renauds are probably cringing listening to this. It's painful, but thermal biofeedback works quite well to help it. Right? So if somebody's hands are really cold, high 60s or low 70s, sometimes half a degree initially, it's going to be really hard to move it initially.
So half a degree is absolutely a success, right?
And with time, folks with very cold hands can and do get to that 95 degrees, as hard as it might be to believe.
I've seen people do this at our clinic all the time.
But initially, half a degree. A degree, maybe a degree and a half, like a little bit at a time. And once temperature figures out how to get moving, it won't be like half a degree until 95 forever. Right. It's just initially, it's going to be very slow progress, and then it's likely going to pick up. For people who are starting off in mid to high 70s, which is more common than high 60s or low 70s, success is going to be a little faster, but still, a degree is going to be a really good outcome. And then it's going to pick up for folks who are closer to 85, they may be seeing a change. It could still be. A degree or they may be seeing like five or six or ten degrees, that's where it's going to get a lot more variable. And for folks who are starting off in the high 80s, they might be able to get to 95 fairly quickly. So it just really depends on where you're starting off.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Awesome. Any other things that questions I may have not have asked because this is such a fascinating topic and I really think just shows the power of biofeedback in these slight variations that, again, HRV biofeedback will take a lot of people there, but just like these little variations to address specific issues. But any other additional things before we wrap up that I may not have asked?
[00:36:31] Speaker B: Yeah, I think there's one thing that I meant to talk about earlier on when it actually fit theme wise better. But let me come back to normal lowering of the temperature of the hands, right. When we are stressed, people often experience when you're stressed, your hands get cold. I know my hands get cold when I get stressed. That's happened to a lot of people. And the reason for it is your blood is getting redirected to other areas of the body. If you think about what the stress response is, it's the fight or flight response. So your body is preparing for running or fighting, right? That response happens whether you are actually about to run or fight or whether you're just sitting on the couch worrying about things, right. That part of your brain really doesn't know the difference. So it's preparing your body for running and fighting. And if you were to be running and fighting, you would need that blood in your major muscles, major organs, and not in your hands and feet. So that's why your hands and feet might get colder. And another evolutionary reason for this is if you are fighting, of course your extremities are the ones that are most likely to get injured. So if there is reduced blood flow, you are less likely to bleed out and die. So it's a neat little adaptation that our bodies are performing and we don't need it very much these days, but obviously still comes in handy for some folks. But I think it's just important to realize that your hands getting cold when you're stressed is an entirely normal process.
We just don't want that to be hanging around, right. We don't want cold hands to be there all the time if you get stressed. And we want the hand temperature to recover once the stressor is over. And that's what we're working on with biofeedback, is increasing the baseline and helping people recover faster after stressful situations.
[00:38:29] Speaker A: Amazing. Well, what a great nerdy way to end a nerdy podcast that I absolutely loved. And let me again one more time, biofeedback and Mindfulness in everyday life. If you haven't picked up Ena's book, pick it up. If you've listened to more than one episode of this podcast, I can promise you, you will be as enthralled with it as I was. You get all the great stuff we talked about in this podcast. And then the temperature piece was just like a little bit of a different way to look at biofeedback than I was really aware about this going into. And again, as we talked about hitting things slightly different, complementary maybe, but slightly different in a way that I think a lot of folks would find it interesting to add to their practice. So, ena as always, thank you so much for being on the show, always learned so much. And as always, you can find us at Optimal Hrv.com show notes. All those goodies on there and appreciate you joining us. Ina, thank you so much. And we'll see everybody next week.
[00:39:34] Speaker B: Thank you, Matt.
