Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability podcast is a production of optimal L L C and optimal hrv. Check us
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Speaker 1 00:00:32 Welcome Prince to the heart rate variability podcast. I'm Matt, I here with a very special guest today that I'm excited, but I gotta give my, uh, friend Dr. Dave, uh, credit for, uh, connecting us with this guest. So all I wanna do is welcome everybody. Dave, I'll throw it over to you to do an introduction and get us, uh, uh, kicked off today.
Speaker 2 00:00:55 Yes. Well, uh, well, I have the pleasure of meeting Dr. Cisco Reyes here and, um, and it's amazing what we found out, how much we actually have in common. Um, so, uh, so we many times in our lives, but never met each other. Uh, it's, uh, it's, it's been really cool getting to know Dr. Reyes here. So, um, so what I would like you to do, uh, Cisco, is if you could, um, tell everybody a little bit about your background, uh, where you've been professionally, uh, where, how you got here, uh, what drives you, what's your motivation, and then, uh, what you're currently working on.
Speaker 3 00:01:34 Perfect. Well, again, uh, Matt, Dave, thank you so much for having me. Uh, it's, it's, it really is one of those situations where it was meant to be. And again, Dave and I were, we, we were walking next to each other for a long time without ever knowing that we were walking next to each other. And, and that's kind of the beauty within our industry and our professional, professional realm of just how close we really are. Um, but I'm, I'm ha I'm happy to be here. Uh, yeah. I'm, I'm currently the associate professor, um, within our health, human performance and athletics department here at Linfield University, which is a small Division three school, um, right outside Portland, Oregon, um, in McMinnville, Oregon. Um, in addition to my associate professor duties, I'm the graduate program coordinator for our new Masters of Science and Sports Science and analytics, where we focus on sport technology and collecting physiological data to help inform decision making for coaches, strength coaches, uh, rehab professionals, the athletes themselves, um, et cetera.
Speaker 3 00:02:34 Um, I mean, I think like all of us, we, we all started off as an athlete and we wanted to stay in athletics for as long as we possibly could. Um, I was a collegiate baseball player here at Pacific University, just right down the road, um, in Forest Grove, Oregon, and knew that I love lifting weights. I love being in the weight room, and I love seeing how strength training and the work in the weight room can transform the mind and the body to be better versions of themselves, which ultimately is my mantra is, um, elevating and empowering athletes surround me to be better versions of themselves. Um, and so strengthening conditioning was something that I really had a passion for and, and, and still do. Uh, after I finished my bachelor's at Pacific University, I earned my master's and PhD back home in Moscow, Idaho, at the University of Idaho, uh, where I focused more on baseball biomechanics, um, improving bat speed of, of during the swing.
Speaker 3 00:03:31 But then during my time in school and research, I was a volunteer strength and conditioning coach at the University of Idaho Athletics Department. So I always wanted to tie athletics with the academics, and I wanted to go to institutions where I felt that I had the opportunity to do that and work with like-minded individuals, again, both academically, but also in the weight room that wanted to find ways to just constantly improve themselves and also push the student athletes again, to be better versions of themselves. And that's where, um, Dave and I, where, where our lives kind of overlapped was as Dave was graduating from northern Illinois, I was coming in as a new assistant professor at Northern Illinois. So we know very, uh, uh, we know common colleagues and, and professionals. Uh, over at, at N I U I spent three years there and then went to Concordia University here in Portland, Oregon.
Speaker 3 00:04:26 Um, and I, I had the opportunity at Concordia because it is smaller, to do exactly what I wanted to do professionally, like I said, is really tie the athletics with the academics. So as a professor, I was also the athletic performance director, so I oversaw all the strength and conditioning with the varsity teams. But because of my role academically, I was able to bring in students to basically be my quote unquote assistance. And they could actually see firsthand the, the concepts within the classroom and how I was applying it, um, in the weight room. Uh, I was there for six years. And then in 2017, I came here to Linfield, uh, with a phone call from athletic director Gary Kilgore, who said he had a vision of bringing in athletics with academics, which is why he called me cuz he knew that was kind of, that was my passion and my specialty.
Speaker 3 00:05:18 And here we are with this master's program and it, it, it truly is an experiential learning, um, program for our grad students where we spend less time in the classroom and actually more time on the field on the pitch using sport technology to collect physiological data. So, um, I'm, I'm very blessed to be where I am. Um, in addition to Linfield, I run the Rise lab, which is a privately owned business out out of TIG Oregon, where I focus on strength training and educating, uh, middle school and high school athletes to elevate and engage them to be better versions of themselves. So it really is a, an an integrated model that I, I, I live my life on by bringing in my family with the Rise lab, um, my work at Linfield and my passions within, uh, education and strength and conditioning.
Speaker 2 00:06:05 Well, well, that is awesome. Um, and I think I, you know, like you said, you're tying athletics with academics and, uh, and students must just go crazy for that. And I, and I know that anytime you can tie something in the real world with, you know, what you're learning in the classroom, it's gonna stick 10 times better. So I can only imagine that your students are extremely engaged, love coming, love coming to your classes. Um, and, and that's the, uh, that's the basis of your entire master's program. Is that correct as well?
Speaker 3 00:06:41 It is. We wanted to create something unique, um, and we, we, we wanted our students to learn by doing, and not just the professors and the faculty basically telling them what to do or, you know, g go find a, you know, 20 articles, write about it and come back and present it to the class. Like we, we introduced them to the technology, uh, we assigned them to a team and, you know, they collect the physiological data. Then we come back to the class and just brainstorm and critically think like, what are you seeing with, um, you know, jump monitoring? What are you seeing with, um, H R V? What are you seeing with some of the cognitive testing that we're doing on a regular basis to ensure that they're mentally fresh but also physically fresh? And then we just kind of, um, create visual summaries and go through some analyses that we can communicate with our sport coaches and they ultimately make the decisions. I mean, you two know that they're the coaches, we're not the coaches. We just help them make decisions based off of what the athletes are telling us, either verbally or physiologically, whether they, you know, whether they feel it or know it or not, or not.
Speaker 2 00:07:47 You can inform the coaches as much as you want. Right. But you can't force them.
Speaker 3 00:07:52 No, no. And, and we understand that.
Speaker 2 00:07:54 Maybe communicate
Speaker 3 00:07:55 With, we communicate with them with that from the very beginning. It's like, we're not gonna tell you what to do, but if you find these metrics valuable or even better, what metrics do you wanna know? And then we can collect that for you. So communication is extremely important, and we don't wanna collect data for the sake of collecting DA data. And we also tell 'em like, we're not using your, your student athletes as Guinea pigs. Like, we're not gonna poke and prod them and change anything. Like we are really profiling and benchmarking and monitoring. Like, those are the three things that we're doing. And at that point, you know, it's your program, you can do, you know what you want to do, but we've been fortunate to have coaches that, that trust us and, and that, and that buy into what we're trying to do.
Speaker 1 00:08:37 So I'm, I'm curious, like, uh, being a athlete myself through college, a lot of metrics you can, that's what I love about sports is you have win-loss records, you have, uh, batting averages, points per game, rebounds per, I mean, it's so concrete in, uh, so many ways. How have you seen, like recently, you know, there just seems to be this real, um, awareness of biometrics and sort of what's going on underneath the skin. I just love as, as you've been in this arena now and interested in it for even longer, how have you seen a, a shift in sports or where do you see the shift in sports of really digging deeper outside just the performance? Well, but what's, uh, behind the performance in a lot of ways,
Speaker 3 00:09:26 I, I think for future directions within this idea of biometrics and, and sports sciences, I think finding that balance between, um, the monitoring side and just toughening it out and, and doing it, you know, and, and I think, um, you know, we, we have coaches that really want to push their athletes and we can, we can collect the data and show them like, yeah, you're fatiguing 'em, and, you know, but maybe that's a part of their plan. And I think we're, um, at least I think we're, we're starting to dig out of it a little bit, but the pendulum kind of swung a little bit too far, where as soon as an athlete, you know, reports like they're in the red or whatever, it's like automatically shut them down, you know? Or they're gonna do a completely different practice, or they're gonna do a completely different regime on for the next couple days because they are either neuromuscularly fatigued or emotionally fatigued or physiological fatigue, whatever it may be.
Speaker 3 00:10:23 But when we're talking about programming in general, I mean, there's overreaching, there's also over training. Yeah. We don't wanna over train them, but there are times where we do wanna overreach. We want them feeling fatigued because we know that as a part of the ultimate plan, we will then incorporate some sort of recovery or cycle change that's then gonna allow them to super compensate, you know, several, several weeks down the road. So, you know, collect the collection of the biometrics. I think sh is, is a little bit more longitudinal and shouldn't necessarily be like day by day by day. Yes, you can make slight adjustments here and there, but, you know, I, I mean, I think the, I think the most recent example is things like Kauai Leonard where like, you know, you, you hear stories where he just shows up to the, the facility at four o'clock on a 7:00 PM game, and he tells the coaches like, I'm not playing today.
Speaker 3 00:11:16 It's like, well, why not? It's like, I just don't, I just don't feel it. It's like, well, I, I get, I get, again, I'm not in the building, but I Yeah, I understand that. But can, it's the playoffs. Like, are you able to push through this a little bit? You know, like this kind of do or die. Um, and then I think the other side of the future direction and something that I'm, I'm more passionate about is the profiling and benchmarking. And when, whenever I talk to people about the things that we do at Linfield, the first thing that a lot of people think about, it's like, oh, it's like Moneyball. It's like, in a way it is, it, it really is like, can we collect, you know, these physiological and psychological datas? Can we quantify the six aspects of athleticism? And then can we correlate it to on-field performance, like you said, does it translate to wins and losses?
Speaker 3 00:11:58 Does it translate to slugging percentage in baseball and in softball? Does it translate to points per game in basketball? Does it translate to minutes played in soccer? Because, you know, if, if you're available, you're gonna help your, your team the most. And so I think that's a future direction where we need more data and we need more collaboration with a, a large number of sports scientists to see are there physiological and athletic characteristics that can almost, I don't like using the word, but can almost predict performance. So then athletes, or I'm sorry, coaches know who to recruit, who fits their system, and then therefore they can say, this person's gonna thrive in our system.
Speaker 1 00:12:39 Yeah. I, I love the why, uh, example, cuz it, I, I'm formulating this unscientific backed theory in my head. I'd love to get, Dave, I'd love to get your opinion on this, uh, too is I, I wonder like we have these, and I, I think if you base anything on somebody like LeBron, you might be so far out on the standard deviations, probably doesn't normalize the rest of us. But, but I, I sort of wonder like him, Tom Brady, we have these folks who normally would've retired doing amazing things. Uh, you know, especially, I mean, LeBron does stick out because basketball, you know, you can't stand behind big dudes and just throw the ball. You are actively involved every play. I, I sort of am wondering what we're seeing with the quads are like, are we hitting a point where we are sacrificing short-term availability, uh, for a longer term career?
Speaker 1 00:13:39 Like that's what I'm, I'm wondering if we're seeing the load management and I, I'm more of a basketball fan than any other sport, but like, we're, we're, we're just in this time where Larry Bird would've played through that. But Larry Bird had a relatively short, especially at his best career, if you look at it, so Michael Jordan retired cuz he was so burned out. He is also like smoking cigars before games, uh, too. So like I, I kinda wonder like this hyper focus on even Kauai, if you listen to people that work out with him, he's so meticulous and works so hard, but it's like a fine tuned machine that will break down maybe in the short term, but will perform for 20 years instead of 12. Uh, which works if you're a really good like quad, not so much for my basketball career, which was gonna be over my senior year of college. And just wonder if you're seeing anything like that, especially when you look at professional athletes.
Speaker 2 00:14:40 So, so I, that's um, you know, that's such a tough spot and, and Cisco, you, you hit it right on the head where, you know, you have to balance that. Uh, where is it? You just gotta push through this and where is it? Okay, you need to recover. Um, cuz I come from a background in sports that are very tough. You know, it's, um, I come from ice hockey, I come from boxing, uh, you know, I come from fighting professionally. I'm mixed martial arts. Like, um, there is no, I'm not up for it today, coach. It's, it's, no, you get out there and you push your hardest no matter what you feel like you <laugh>, you stuff those feelings down and you just go through it, right? Um, you know, you threw up big deal, you keep going, you got hit in the face deal going, uh, you know, and, um, but, but obviously those sports also have a very short, short-lived career. Um, so yeah, that, that is a, uh, that is an interesting, uh, you know, question there as well. Um, but you know, from where I'm sitting, I always, I always have to go with, you know, it is maybe the the quote unquote smart thing, but is that the right thing, uh, as well. Um, so I don't know. Uh, so, so Cisco, how do, how do you guys handle that right now with your athletes?
Speaker 3 00:15:59 Oh, um, it, it, it's more of the, the it and it's obviously still a work in progress because our, our grad program is, is, I mean, we're only finishing up our second year, so we're still pretty new, but it's definitely not a shutdown <laugh> type of thing. I mean, our, our coaches don't want to hear that so-and-so shut down because they're tired. I mean, they're obviously not gonna, you know, hear that. So it's more of a modifications, I guess is, is the best way to put it. So our sports performance director, um, Ella, Melissa, like she, she has a master's degree in strength conditioning in sports science. Her, her dad is one of the top-notch sports scientists in the world. So she, she completely understands and supports what we're doing and how it's gonna help her be a better professional. So as we go through some of the jump monitoring, you know, as we go through what, what we hope to be incorporating H R V with, with our teams, that she understands that if someone comes in with a red, whether it's a questionnaire, jump heights, lower reactive strength index is lower, H R V is lower, that she then knows what to do for their specific programming for that day so that she doesn't run them into the ground and knows that they still got practice later on later on today.
Speaker 3 00:17:11 Mm-hmm. Um, so she does really, she does a really good job of adjusting programs, uh, whether that's decreasing volume, obviously decreasing intensity, making a little bit more time for mobility work or just kind of, you know, uh, lower intensity type of aerobic work to kind of help them recover. Um, and so we wouldn't have this program if we didn't have buy-in from everybody involved within our athletic department and then across campus. And like I said, we're very blessed that she, she gets this and she understands the benefit of it. Um, we we're, we're incorporating a new athlete management, uh, software that kind of, that houses all of our data that makes it easier to communicate with our sports medicine staff and our sports performance director and their sport coaches and the athletes themselves to say, you know, yeah, they might be reporting something with questionnaires, but physiologically they're HRVs up and they're still jumping as high as they normally do, as fast as they do. So, like you said, Dave, like that's just go, like, you're fine. Like you, you might be feeling tired, but at least physiologically, um, your, your autonomic nervous system and your neuromuscular system is saying that you're fine. So that's just gonna take communication. Um, but that's, that's our model at least for right now with how we handle things here with our student athletes.
Speaker 2 00:18:31 So Cisco, um, with, uh, mentioned the, the longitudinal or linear, uh, you know, glance, uh, you know, focusing on that more than the data date. So with that, like we know that, we know that when we, when we watch somebody, you know, over the long term and they are stressing themselves and pushing themselves, you know, uh, that we're gonna, like HRV for example, to start to decrease, right? Uh, and then we have to reach a certain point where we're going to pull them out and do the recovery process as you mentioned. Um, but we know that if we keep pushing them, then the next time we push them, we can push them a little bit harder before they fall, right? Um, and then we help them recover and then we can push them a little bit harder than that next time, right? And, and we can keep pushing. So over the long term we're seeing this tremendous growth out of a person, um, because we are pushing them outta that comfort zone on a consistent basis. Um, so I know you mentioned hrv, um, and of course that's what we want to talk about, but, uh, what else do you guys use? So you guys do, are you, you guys are using, what else do you use to measure, uh, recovery and to, uh, and to decide when to pull somebody back into recovery as you're going through that, uh, that long plan?
Speaker 3 00:19:53 So, um, our, our biggest monitoring tool, at least this past year has been, uh, counter movement jump testing where we've, where we've tested, uh, teams once to two times a week, usually done before their, their lifting session with our sports performance director, where we have 'em jump two, three times counter movement jump. So with the wind up, the squat down, hands on their hips the whole time, cuz we just wanna see what the lower body performance is doing. And there are specific metrics that we look at. And, uh, when it comes to force plate jumping, we use Hawk and Dynamics and Hawk and Dynamics, um, has specific thresholds built into the software that gives the red, Amber Green alert for those metric me. So if it's something green that that means they're actually doing better than they were compared to their rolling average over the past several days.
Speaker 3 00:20:46 Um, Amber's just kind of like, they're pretty much the same, you know, might wanna keep an eye on this one, and then red just means that it's significantly lower their score, significant lower than what their rolling average was. Um, so that's what we're using right now, um, with this new athlete management software. It, uh, subjective questionnaires are built in as well. And that is something that we're, we are going to incorporate with teams next fall. Uh, basically a kiosk system in the weight room. So as soon as they walk in, they'll just fill out the, the subjective questionnaire that gets a sense of their soreness, their moodiness, their fatigue, um, their soreness levels. Um, and then we can take that with their jumping data to get a sense of, okay, you know, they're, they're very fatigued or looking at the trends over the past couple days, they're feeling great.
Speaker 3 00:21:40 So therefore Ella or myself, um, can get a better idea of what their program is gonna look like for that session. But then also the recommendations that we'll give them throughout the day, leading into practice and then after practice, whether that's more, um, you know, soft tissue therapy with foam rolling and, you know, uh, other kind of quote unquote massage modalities or, you know, if you can just get on a treadmill and set it up 3% and just walk for, you know, 20, 30 minutes as a way to recover. So we want them moving, but we want them moving appropriately based off of their, um, their recovery, um, status. And then, like I said, uh, we're, we're hoping that we can incorporate H R V with at least one team this coming fall. So now we've got more of an an autonomic nervous system type of response to their stress levels, especially with their student at their students. So school and finals and living situations and they might be working. And so, you know, social situations, like all those things come into play that we can really monitor their overall stress levels.
Speaker 1 00:22:47 Yeah. That, that was kind of what, uh, set up my question really well was like, I, I don't wanna take the fun outta the college experience for student athletes, you know, and I, I wonder like, one, I think for me as a college basketball player would've been really nice to say, you know, Hey, we probably should get this dude into therapy. He is not sleepy. Well, he is stressed out all the time. Like, this dude needs a sports, he just needs a psychologist. He, uh, he like, get this dude some help, cuz I'm sure my H R V was in the toilet. Now I could show up for a game and perform at an adequate level, but I wonder what I could have achieved. So I wonder, like in your role when, when you talk about, you know, maximizing performance, you know, we know if they're having a heavy night drinking or two, or staying up till, you know, 2:00 AM on Red Bull studying for tests or doing other funer stuff than studying for a test. Like, there's a lot of these lifestyle things that probably contribute, especially to heart rate variability, but performance, now that we know those are connected, how, how do you approach those issues, uh, with your, with your athletes?
Speaker 3 00:24:02 You know, you know, Matt, uh, yeah, I, I, I remember what it's like in college, being a student athlete. And, um, when you're 18, 19, 20, 20 years old, you think you're invincible and you know that like, I'll recover, I'll be fine, I'll, I'll bounce back. And they can, they're, they're obviously very resilient, uh, both mentally and physically at, you know, at their age. It, it comes down to one of my, my mantras, education, you know, just educating them on, you know, what's good, what's bad. But then similar to what we talked about with the coaches, it's ultimately up to them like they're the ones making the decisions. And even when we do some of these tests, w we always, um, preface the testing by saying, we're not here to judge. We're not, we're not judging you on on any of these things. We just need to get a sense of what you're doing, how you're moving, how you are feeling.
Speaker 3 00:24:54 And we always phrase it in a way that we're trying to help you be better. You're, we're trying to help you be, be a better athlete. We're trying to help you to become a better student. And most importantly, we're trying to help you become a better and more educated person. Yeah. Because you're only gonna be playing sports for four years beyond that. You we're hoping that we're setting you up, that you know how to take care of yourself because you've got the rest of your life to handle work and family and bills and stress and commuting and, and all that type of stuff. So we just have to educate. We just have to empower them that they make the right decisions. Um, because yeah, I know what it's, I know what being a college athlete is like, and I wanna have fun too, and we want them to have fun, but maybe just choose the right moments to have fun and not the day before a big conference basketball ball game. Right.
Speaker 1 00:25:45 <laugh>
Speaker 3 00:25:46 And, and from and being here six years, you know, small division three, liberal arts, you university, the students get it. They understand that they're not division one in regards to athletes, but they have a very unique situation where they can get a really, really good education. Yeah. But still play very competitive athletics. So I haven't noticed any sort of with it. I mean, our, our football program has like the longest active winning streak in N C A A across all three levels is like 66 years straight of, of a winning season. They're in, you know, the, um, the division three tournament every year. Our softball team consistently ranked within the top five year in and year out. Our, our baseball team historically has been extremely good. I mean, we just have very good athletics, which then shows that we have good coaches, but we also have very good student athletes that understand their role and how to take advantage of their time here at Linfield.
Speaker 2 00:26:46 And once you are incorporating H R V, you guys will just be number one in everything that's Yes.
Speaker 3 00:26:52 Across all sports. You're gonna
Speaker 1 00:26:54 <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:26:57 All sports, all divisions. Yes. All
Speaker 3 00:26:59 Sports, all divisions. We'll, we'll be beating U of O and track. I mean Yeah, it'll be,
Speaker 1 00:27:03 There you go. There you go. <laugh>, <laugh>, optimal RV versus Nike. I like it. We're ready for him. <laugh>.
Speaker 2 00:27:11 So, um, well, one thing that I mentioned to you as well talked about his, uh, his basketball career. So Matt is six foot seven, by the way. Uh oh, okay. So you can't, you can't tell that at the moment. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:27:23 Normal sized on Zoom.
Speaker 2 00:27:26 Yes. Um, but, uh, but I wanted to, uh, backtrack back to you were talking about the, uh, the vertical jumps. Is, is that a daily, you've taken that every single day when athletes walk in? Or, or most days, I should say
Speaker 3 00:27:41 Most days, yeah, two, two days a week. Usually three days a week would be ideal. Um, but most of our teams in season are only lifting one to two days a week. So, and, and understandably so. Um, so we usually just get them to jump two days a week. And we, we do it similar to the questionnaire, similar to rvu. We don't want them warmed up, you know, we just want them to come in. They do their three counter movement jumps and there are just a few select metrics that we look at to monitor what their fatigue levels are. Um, when they're jumping on force plates, we're getting tons of metrics on one jump for each of the, the athletes. So we went back and looked at the literature and found that here are maybe the top three or four up to maybe six metrics that really mean the most. Now in regards to fatigue, there are other metrics that can, you know, pertain more to performance, but we're using it more to monitor fatigue. So it's, it's extremely quick, um, and can be extremely valuable to get a sense of how well their neuromuscular system is communicating with each, with each other before their lift and then for the rest of their day for school and practice.
Speaker 1 00:28:50 That's
Speaker 2 00:28:51 Really good. And, and that's a maximal effort on that Correct.
Speaker 3 00:28:53 Maximal effort. And we, we have to verbally remind them that, cuz as you can imagine, you know, with volleyball, 7:00 AM lift on a Monday and they play on Friday, Saturday, they're probably traveling some on Sunday. They come in and, you know, you don't blame them right. For being tired. So you just have to remind them like, I know you're tired, but you just, just give me all that you got for these two, three jumps. And they, they've been, they've been, um, compliant. I mean, again, they get it. They, they understand and when you do enough testing, you can look at a jump both visually and then also looking at the tablet and the numbers to be like, okay, like you could, you could do better than that. And then they're like, okay. And then they'll, you know, do the last two with, with good effort.
Speaker 2 00:29:34 Awesome. Well that, that'll be really cool to see, uh, HRV correlating with that. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, and then as you guys, uh, like get into that too, uh, doing some breathing exercises too, I think that would be amazing to see how that, uh, how that affects some of the athletes and, um, and whatnot. But, uh, Matt, did you have a question there? Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:29:55 I wonder like, like, I, I think there's an interesting, i I don't know if you've seen something that, that I might might help me too, is the idea of strength training on heart rate variability. I think there's like, like for me now, being in my forties, I, I know the benefits of strength training where I'm at now, you know, I, I'm interested like, because you're not necessarily raising heart rate, you're putting strain on the body, but sort of, I I could probably predict what a hard two mile all out run would do to your heart rate variability. Do you have any idea, like, uh, after lifting, are we seeing similar kind of stress? You, do you have any ideas what you're going to kinda see, uh, post lifting and how that might kind of impact heart rate variability or just overall fatigue, uh, moving forward?
Speaker 3 00:30:52 That's, that's a really good question. I, I myself don't know firsthand the RV changes pre-post Yeah. Like pre lift versus post lift. I mean, I, I don't know. Um, that is something that excites me in the sense of utilizing H RV with, you know, a couple of our teams starting this, this fall is having them do it the morning of, you know, when they first wake up and then tell 'em, bring your, bring your straps. You obviously will have your phone with you now after you lift recover for about 10 minutes. And then let's do H R V. Yeah. And just kind of see, you know, what it looks like. Um, within the weight room, as a strength and conditioning coach, we can easily adjust lifts based off of what the H R V is saying, or their jump data where we can still get them to work, but we're just going to minimize either the volume or the intensity so they can recover.
Speaker 3 00:31:47 So one thing that I used to do when I was in the weight room more often actually training athletes than I, than I am now, is if I saw someone that was, you know, really in the red, whether it was through questionnaires, um, we, we weren't using H R V at the time, but questionnaires or just, um, some sort of like velocity based measurement, like a jump or trying to move like an empty barbell as fast as they can, and they're, they're moving slow. Um, I remember there was one time I had a men's soccer team. It, it was a six 30 lift. They, they played the night before we were supposed to lift. They all just came in and you could just tell, I, there were no measurements. I could just tell, right, these were dying. So they didn't want, they didn't wanna be there, they didn't wanna lift.
Speaker 3 00:32:28 So I just said, all right, we're gonna go up to the gym. And I had my student, I had two student student assistants at the time. I said, gather all the rubber mats that you can grab all the foam rollers, go up to the gym and I want you to shut all the lights off. So we went up to the gym and we did 30 minutes of, I'm not a yoga instructor, but we did 30 minutes of like yoga type stuff. Yeah. Where we would crocodile breathing, we would do some foam rolling, we would do some mobility stuff. And then after the 30 minutes, I just flipped the lights back on and the looks on their faces, they, it was completely different. It was completely, I mean, they, they were, they just looked more rejuvenated. Um, and I think they thought that they were gonna come in and I was just gonna hammer 'em.
Speaker 3 00:33:07 And I'm like, I'm not doing my job. If, if I just stuck to the script and just did our heavy deadlifts or, you know, bench, whatever it may be. Um, we can also change it in the sense of making it more neuromuscular and not so much cardiovascular, um, in the sense of the lift itself. So we can just focus on 15, 20 minutes of pure just like power training. So it's whether it's like med ball throws and like low level plyometrics or kettlebell swings or, you know, maybe not so much Olympic lifting. Cause that is very complex for the, for the, uh, neuromuscular system. But just finding ways to keep 'em what I call twitchy. Yeah. And then getting out, and then they're done at that point. So, you know, good strength and conditioning coaches will be able to think creatively and think on their feet and go in deep into their toolbox to say that if I've got these five who are feeling fresh, they're gonna stick to the script.
Speaker 3 00:34:05 If, if I've got these five who are showing signs of fatigue, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna take the same program, but we're just gonna tweak the volume. We're gonna tweak the intensity, maybe regress some of the exercises so they're not as complex. So you don't have to quote unquote think as much and then you're out, you, you know, move on the rest of the day. And then again, educate 'em on sleep and hydration and what are you eating? Try to go home and take like a 30 minute power nap between classes and practice or, you know, something like that.
Speaker 1 00:34:36 I love it. I love it. That I, yeah, I think that this is an, an area that we'll learn a lot about over the next really few years is like, you know, we, we know that low heart rate variability can predict injury, but it may be that we just are pushing ourselves where we just don't have that much. And I think strength training is gonna be an interesting area of not necessarily something that strings the cardiovascular system, um, in the same way, but there's, yeah, I, I think there's a huge question there that folks like yourself can really help fill in of, you know, what, what, what do we see if somebody's in red and they lift hard? You know, are we really decreasing it? Or is that better than doing a a hard cardiovascular today can almost be part of an recovery, or do we pull back a little bit? And I think that's, that's where I see a lot of folks are kind of asking questions about where does strength training kind of fit into all of this? So that, that's ex exciting, uh, to know that you are already really thinking about that philosophically in your approach as well.
Speaker 3 00:35:42 And again, I I, so I, I feel confident experimenting, if that's the right word, experimenting with something like this topic where you got pre-post H r v. Cuz I just wanna go back and say our students are very engaged when it comes to this stuff. Yeah. I mean, they get, they're here for school as well as sports. But I, you know, I'm just gonna use our volleyball team as an example. Like, I, I've got two gonna be seniors, you know, more or less captains who are, who are exercise science majors and are two of the most engaged students in the class whenever we're talking about, you know, neuromuscular stuff or, you know, cardiovascular type of work like the H R V. Like they eat that stuff up. And so, um, going into the team and say, Hey, you know, marina and Paige, can you two measure H R V now after your lift and let me know what your numbers say.
Speaker 3 00:36:30 And again, the compliance with, with our student athletes here have always been really, really high because they're engaged, they get it, they understand they wanna be better. And going back to the, the previous question, one thing I tell 'em too, it's like, do you guys wanna get sick? And they're like, oh, no, no, like, you can't afford to get sick. I'm like, well that's why we're helping you track this stuff is we, we don't want it to get to the point where, yes, you're hurt, but then now you've got like a cold in the middle of your conference season and that's obviously gonna, you know, uh, hinder your performance as well. So it's, it's things like that that they, they understand, they, they, they really understand.
Speaker 1 00:37:08 Awesome.
Speaker 2 00:37:10 So Cisco with the, um, from the strength and conditioning coach, uh, aspect, or even the, even the coach is aspect, I, you know, the logistics of this as well, where it's so much easier when the entire team is doing the exact same thing. So when you think, oh, now you have, you know, as you were saying, these five athletes that have to do this program and these five athletes that need to do this program, and then the rest of you're doing this, um, now that's a lot more work for the coaches. That's a lot more work, you know, for the, uh, for the people who are heading up the strengthening conditioning programs. Um, so, uh, so I think that's another hurdle, uh, that needs to, that we need to overcome. Uh, and, and I, I can only imagine is a challenge, um, for you to, uh, for you, you know, as, as somebody doing that, um, but then to, uh, to try to get coaches to do something, uh, different for different athletes.
Speaker 2 00:38:04 Um, so I wanted to, uh, wanna talk on that. But then with, um, with the H R V itself, uh, doing that pre-post workout is, is awesome to do. And, uh, and uh, and so you guys know, we, we should see a drop in H R V, um, especially if we're pushing somebody throughout that, uh, throughout that weightlifting program, but it's the recovery side that's gonna be really cool is where you can actually see that person recover from their workout, uh, when you do that, you know, uh, post-exercise measurement of H R V and then you can do hourly, um, you know, or every two hours or so, um, to actually see their H RV start to come back and see their autonomic nervous system beginning to recover throughout that day. And then of course the next day we have that, uh, global impact too. So, uh, so that'll be awesome to see. But, uh, but yeah, to, to the logistics, is that a challenge, um, to overcome or do you foresee that as a challenge as well?
Speaker 3 00:38:58 Uh, no, that, that's a really good point, Dave. That is a challenge. Uh, and, and it's funny because when I was in the weight room more training, training athletes and I would have a again, uh, a group that needed more recovery couldn't go as hard. At least that's how I felt based off what I saw. It was really easy for me to pivot and just be like, okay, like we're gonna have you two again hop on a spin bike, like what we call high intensity continuous training, where you just hop on a spin bike, you crank the resistance up, like really, really high and you're just gonna sludge through this pedaling for for 20 minutes. It sounds brutal, but, um, it's actually a really good recovery tool because it's, it's all concentric cuz you're on a bike. Um, it's really easy for me to do that, and I'm more than willing to do that.
Speaker 3 00:39:45 Um, I also coach a club softball team here in the area, and I coached high school baseball and, and as a sport coach, when I get that, it's annoying. Like in the sense of when I have someone that comes and says, oh, I can't do X, Y, Z as a sport coach. I'm like, God, like really? Like, you can't do, like I have this nice practice plan that we're gonna work through and now you're telling me that you can't do. So it's like the two different types of hats that I wear. One of it I'm more understanding. And then the other one, it's like, we have things to do. We only have two hours. Like, you gotta be able to do this, this, it absolutely is a challenge. And, and, and, and a part of what we're doing right now within our, our sport science and analytics program, and again, we communicate this to the coaches, is we just wanna collect data for the next three years on your team.
Speaker 3 00:40:28 We're not gonna necessarily change anything, but we're just gonna collect all of this data. So then you can go back in retrospect and say, we had a really good year in 2022, or we had a really good year in 2023, now it's 20 24, 20 25. Well, why don't you look back and see what were you doing practice plan wise or in their situation, like periodizing like their programming for practices and training leading into games. Did you do anything different? Uh, and, and why and, and how that correlates to maybe how well that you did. And if we start to see certain trends, then that could be the data that's gonna drive them to change maybe their practice plans where they are gonna have to be a little bit more flexible or they're, they're already gonna have to plan different, like two different types of practices on that day because they know they're gonna have a group that's gonna be tired and they know they're gonna have a group that's ready to basically at attack the day.
Speaker 3 00:41:28 Um, I think good sport coaches are able to be flexible and change on the spot. Again, that doesn't mean that they have to drastically change their program, but they can at least take a group and say, all right, instead of this drill, I'm just gonna use as, as an example, instead of doing it for 20 minutes, you're gonna do it for 10 and for the other 10 you're gonna go off with the athletic trainer or the sports performance coach, or you're gonna do some sort of like recovery modality. So you're still getting the drill, but you may not necessarily be going as long or as hard as maybe the others who are fresh. Um, with some teams like our men's soccer and women's soccer, we do incorporate G P s. So that can come into play as well to be like, all right, you notice how on Mondays your, um, your load metric was really high or your distance was really high.
Speaker 3 00:42:19 Remember when you did that in 2021 and you saw these rash of injuries, your wind loss record was really like, again, we're just collecting it and then you can go back and look to see what, what works. But it is a barrier for sure. And, and that's kind of the buy-in piece. That's why we're not really making the changes with the sport coaches just yet. We're just giving them the data at this point. But again, our sports performance director, she understands what, what needs to happen and shes good enough, um, to know that, all right, we're gonna shift, we're gonna adjust this for this group and we're gonna do this for the other group.
Speaker 1 00:42:51 Well, I, I do, I think it's, you know what, what I would be fascinated to see because you, you know, the, the good and the bad about heart rate variability, the good is it's a universal measure of how well you're handling or recovery from stress. Sort of the negative side of that is stress. It's all stress. So it's not just physical, but like, okay, it's finals week. So I, I really, what I'm fascinated with, what you're gonna find is like on on some of the other physi the jump test, for lack of the technical or that I'm thinking, but like that paired with heart rate variability is you may be during like finals or midterms stress out. Does that, does a red H R V or a low H RV score always correlate with a lower vertical, you know, or other physical tests that you're doing.
Speaker 1 00:43:43 Cuz it, it might, but you could also argue, I just need to get out from the library and studying. So I cannot wait. There, there were days I just couldn't wait to get in the gym because I didn't have to think that much. You know, games I had to think, but at practice I could just run. And if I missed a shot, nobody cared. Nobody won or lost, but I could just get outta the library and that piece. So I'm, I'm really interested, uh, to see that how that sort of correlates with one another and then those, those really great outcome metrics that sports gives you on top of that is really exciting.
Speaker 3 00:44:19 Well, it's funny, it's funny you mentioned that because a, i I was actually just thinking of that, um, uh, yesterday. But here's, here's an example of this. So when, when I was, um, at Concordia working with their women's soccer team, it was um, August. So they're all back for, for fall Camp Ag. Again, I wasn't doing H R V at the time, but I was doing subjective questionnaires. Yeah. So every morning they would fill out, you know, five questions that they would just give a number to, uh, one through five. Then I would tally the numbers up and their total score higher means they were less stressed. Lower number means that they were, they were more stressed. And there was this one girl for about four or five days in a row, she kept, she had really low, low numbers, like she was reporting fatigue and um, um, uh, lack of sleep and moodiness and all this type of stuff.
Speaker 3 00:45:05 And I went to the head coach and I was just like, um, so how's so-and-so doing in, in, in practice? And he was like, fine. Like I don't notice any drop off and you know, and, and, and he asked me why. And I'm like, well you might wanna keep an eye on her because she's reporting x, you know, this, this type. And he was kind of surprised cuz she actually had been practicing, you know, pretty well. And the beauty in monitoring. And I think for me, the beauty of incorporating something like H R V is the mentoring and the education piece that I'm trying to, you know, hammer in regards to, you know, my purpose and what my passion for what it is that I do here at Linfield and at the Rise lab is now it gives me a chance to communicate with the student athlete to get a sense of what's going through their head and most importantly for them to know that you have coaches and faculty here that support you and are here to help you.
Speaker 3 00:45:57 Yeah. And that athlete, when I approached her, she was homesick. Yeah. So she was from Hawaii, she was homesick. Um, so she couldn't sleep. I think she said there was something else going on at home that I didn't, you know, I didn't, I didn't ask. It's, it's not my business. But all it came down to is that she was homesick. Like sh that's it wasn't, had nothing to do physically had nothing to do with the practice, nothing to do with the lifts. Is that when she was back in her apartment, she just couldn't stop thinking about being not being at home. Yeah. And so then we could create that support system cuz there were other girls from Hawaii on that team that were able to kind of prop her up. The head coach had an idea. So that's that example of where the stress may not be from lifting and training and practicing games, but it's all the other stuff that's happening in their life. Cuz they're, they're humans, they're student athletes. And HRV is gonna allow us to kind of peel that layer off so that we can say we're here to help. Like if there's anything we can do with mental health and the emotional side and, you know, finals is too much, school is too much. We are here to help and we are, we're, we're here to be a support system.
Speaker 2 00:47:04 Awesome. And that's, uh, that's so cool and brings up the great point, uh, you know, within, within any kind of tracking, um, but especially something that, uh, that gets talked about a lot in the world of heart rate variability is that, uh, a reading without any context is meaningless. Right. And that's where context is so important with these things because without proper context, you don't understand what is going, going on. And, and that's a, that's a perfect example of it. Um, and, and so cool, uh, you know, that, uh, that, that we do have these different sources. Um, so I know we are wrapping up here and we're getting, uh, we're getting towards the, uh, top of the hour here. So, uh, so Cisco wanted to ask, um, from somebody who is a, uh, is an expert in the area of, of performance and recovery, um, what are some of your personal or, uh, or as a coach from the coaching standpoint, some of your favorite recovery strategies? Uh,
Speaker 3 00:48:05 <laugh> minus sleep. <laugh>, that's number one. I think, uh, you know, I, I get a, I get a hard time from my wife's, you know, because every time I come home it's like, I just, I just wanna sleep. Like that's just <laugh>. That's just my thing. But no, um, sleep. I mean, not to beat a dead horse, but we all know sleep that it's such a, it's an easy and free exercise or recovery modality. I mean, it, it really is. And so, you know, we could say it for another topic, but all, like, you know, this, the, the ways we can monitor sleep and sleep hygiene and it, it, it, it really is important. And I think you two would agree with me that, you know, we feel different when we get a good night's sleep. When we get that deep sleep we can, we're able to get that resting heart rate and, and our respiratory rate like down really low and, you know, um, we just feel different.
Speaker 3 00:48:57 Um, uh, other recovery methods for me, um, Matt mentioned it earlier, at least this is for me personally, but it's something I also program is just active recovery. So just walking, like, just go on a low intense walk. Um, I, at our house, we actually have a tre I built a treadmill desk on our treadmill, and so I'll just set it to like one and a half miles an hour and I'll just set one, one and a half mile an hour at 1% incline, and I'll just walk as I'm on my laptop at the same time. So I'm able to get work done, but at least I know that my body is still moving. Um, I know a lot of our student athletes here swear by foam rolling. Um, whether again it's with a foam roller or those tiger tail, you know, type of, uh, stick things.
Speaker 3 00:49:42 Um, that is something that I, for th for me personally, I, I need to make it more of a priority. I, I do see a massage therapist once a month, um, just to kind of help with muscle tightness. You know, I, I, I commute 45 minutes each way. I, I have a lot on my plate, so I do see a massage therapist once a month. And for me personally, that helps that, that really helps. And he, he al he or she always tells me like, wow, like, you're really tight here. It's like, well, yeah, especially up here. It's like, yeah, you didn't have to tell me. That's why I'm here to see you because yeah, I am really tight. And then they educate me, like, yes, I'm in the field, I educate others. But it's, it's always nice to hear from another professional that says, Cisco, you need to do, you know, these types of things like drink more water.
Speaker 3 00:50:28 Like what are you eating? I mean, that's another recovery is, is diet that I try to educate others and people that know me best know that the diet, that's my, my biggest weak weakness is my diet. I, uh, too much of a sweet tooth. I don't eat the right things. I eat a lot of inflammatory based foods. Cuz to me it tastes good. So if I could be better at the diet part, I feel like I would recover way better. Um, but I think I would, sleep would be number one, sleep would be definitely be number one on, on on my list. And finding ways to fill your cup, what, whatever that is. And, and I tell students that as well. Like, whatever it is that you need to do to fill your cup, everybody does it differently. You need to make time for yourself.
Speaker 3 00:51:15 Yes, you've got school, yes, you've got training, you've got lifts. But I always ask em's like, so what are you guys doing on the weekends? And you know, I I think they're like going back, I don't think they're gonna tell me what they do on the weekends, but, um, you know, I always say, oh, make sure you guys, you know, do something fun. Do something that puts a smile on your face, you know, whatever that is. Because that's definitely more, probably more emotional than it is physical. Um, and, um, you know, you, you two know that when you do something that you really enjoy, almost like a hobby, you just feel different after that. Yeah,
Speaker 2 00:51:50 A hundred percent. I, I wanna applaud you. Uh, and uh, and for, you know, all the listeners out there, there it is straight out of the mouth of a, uh, sports science, uh, PhD here. Uh, and the best recovery is not a $50 sports drink. Right. It's <laugh> It is, it is sleep. Oh my gosh. Right. The basics. If you're doing the basics right, everything else just falls into line. Uh, that is, uh, that is so awesome. Such great advice. So, uh, so, so thank you so much. Did, uh, did you, uh, have anything?
Speaker 1 00:52:25 No, I, Cisco, I just wanna thank you, uh, for a great episode today. Uh, where might people, we'll, we'll put, uh, some stuff in the show notes, but if, uh, people wanna follow up, where, where would people, uh, find you? Like I said, we'll put the links in the show notes.
Speaker 3 00:52:42 Yeah. Um, yeah, Dr. Dave knows I, I'm, I'm very active on social media. Um, I, I, I don't consider myself or striving to be what they call a social influencer, but I want to be a social educator. Awesome. So I use my, um, my Instagram platform just pumping out information on all things sports science and analytics, strengthening conditioning, just kind of sharing experience that I've, experiences that I've gone through in regards to, again, exercise stress training, um, stuff on like the clinic that I was just at, you know, over the weekend. Just kind of what's going on in, in my world. And so the best, uh, way to get ahold of me is through Instagram and it's my, my handle is at the underscore rise underscore lab. Um, and so, yeah, that, that's a really good place to get some fun and educational content on sports science as well as a way to, uh, communicate, get ahold of me. Um, yeah. Awesome.
Speaker 1 00:53:39 And what'll, we'll throw that in the show notes as well in case anybody missed it. Uh, I logged into my Instagram account for the first time in, like, six years yesterday. So, uh, you, you're a good inspiration. And I have logged into mine, uh, way more than Dave has logged into his. So, uh, you, you are an inspiration for both of us, my friends. Well, Cisco, it's an honor to work with you. Uh, this has been an amazing episode, uh, Phil, philosophically I'm really excited, uh, cuz it's such a good fit and I'm excited to learn with you and, uh, we'll have to have you back on soon as, uh, you start to, I implement H R V and, uh, learn some of those lessons together. So really appreciate your time and, uh, how do you think about this? I, I wish you were around in, uh, my college career. I, I could have been much healthier, uh, cuz I was just sitting there with the ice cream machine and, uh, drinking, uh, mountain Dews and the Sunday Bar that was free in the cafeteria. So, no,
Speaker 3 00:54:37 I get it. I mean, you two would understand if, if I know what I know now and I knew it back then, I would've been a totally different person, not just student athlete. I would've been a totally different person. But that's why I do what I do, is I'm trying to educate these kids to basically don't make the same mistakes I did. Right. I'm not saying it was bad, but just again, taking care of myself and how I trained for sports. Like, don't, don't do what I did like be, be better than what I did and be better than, than what I am right now. And so that's my, that's my, my pa my passion and my pers uh, passion and purpose is to push them to be better versions of themselves. So thank you two for having me on. This was a lot of fun. And yeah, anytime that I can come back and just chitchat with you guys and learn from you two as well, I mean, I'm, I'm all for it. So thank you.
Speaker 1 00:55:24 Awesome. Thanks so much. And, uh, thanks to our audience for joining us again. Uh, again, show notes. We'll
[email protected] and uh, we will see you next week. Thanks so much, Cisco.
Speaker 3 00:55:36 Thank you.
