[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability Podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness.
Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and Optimal HRV. Check us out at optimalhrv.com Please enjoy the show.
Welcome friends. The Heart Rate Variability Podcast I'm Matt Bennett and I'm back today with friend of the show author and we got some exciting news to share. Leaving Van Linden welcome back to the show. It's been about. Well once we get this published out into the world it'll be two years since you've been on the show. Last we talked about your book which unfortunately at the time wasn't in English so I could get the highlights in that interview and we'll link that interview in the show notes as well. But Fully Charged is coming to English speaking audiences very shortly so leaving congratulations on that.
For those that may not have listened to our previous interview which again I would suggest we'll put the link in the show notes.
Folks do just love to give an introduction of yourself and I'll just throw out kind of a follow up right away about how did you come to Heart Rate variability.
[00:01:38] Speaker B: Yeah, okay. Yeah, thanks for having me Matt in the show. I'm really pleased to be to be back and to be talking with a thought leader on the field of hrv. So my name is Leven, living in Belgium with two kids and my lovely wife Laura.
And actually yeah, as you mentioned, author of the book Fully Charged. But my journey towards this book has been quite different. Let's say I have a background as a mechanical engineer, worked in a corporate environment for about 10 years working in supply chain operations, let's say optimizing processes where during an executive mba which I did in Belgium, I had these entrepreneurial ideas and spirit and in that time I was also doing a lot of ultra races, endurance races, running these crazy marathons all over the world, in Brazil, in Morocco, races of over 200 km.
And it was actually from my background as an engineer and these experiences as an endurance racer that I noticed in the corporate environment that there was a lack of awareness on sustainable performance.
I noticed that well being was often perceived as something very fluffy by business leaders and they were not really engaged to go to these topics and listen about how to breathe differently.
And actually I had experienced otherwise and having my network in this business area it was an opportunity for me to introduce more this concept of sustainable performance from a measurable way. And HRV was something which crossed my path and which I never let go since then and which offers like so many opportunities to get insights in how you function and how you can improve your performance.
And then I started my own business helping leaders to perform sustainable, bringing them awareness first into their energy level using HRV measurements and then guiding them through immersive experiences. Because I'm also an experienced Wim Hof method instructor, IceBots.
All these kind of immersive experiences which takes someone out of the head into the body. That's something which I like to use during retreats with corporate leaders and then guiding them on a path towards sustainable change where HRV is always this, this metric which gives them feedback on, on how their changes and how their habit changes in real life really impacts their nervous system and, and their, their energy level. So it's been quite an interesting journey. And like you mentioned, I published two years ago my book Fully Charged in Dutch. So it was released in Belgium and the Netherlands.
I was hoping that it was going to be released in English and found the publisher from the UK Kogan page business book publisher and it's being released the 3rd of July. So yeah, very.
[00:04:54] Speaker A: Congratulations.
And I'm assuming just let's get the business part out of the way that people can find that on Amazon and wherever books are published.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Yeah, you can pre order it on Amazon and I think you still get a 30% discount depending when this podcast will be released. But anyway me and I can maybe also give you a discount.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Excellent, sounds good. We'll put that information in the show notes as well. So for, for the listeners who hadn't heard our first interview, let's, let's get to some of the, the core ideas and you shared with me. I'm still waiting to get my hands on the book so I'm excited for it to come out here as well. But what are the core ideas behind Fully Charged?
[00:05:38] Speaker B: Yeah, so actually as mentioned, my background as an engineer, I was for a long period of time interested in how processes work in a factory environment and in a process environment.
And I was always looking for improvement opportunities to reduce waste and improve performance in a process.
I was then from my corporate background also being a consultant, having this idea of why can't we apply this in some kind of way to ourselves as, as humans?
And in Fully Charged I created some kind of framework which actually is based on this idea of processes and improving processes, knowing that every process has an input and an output. And if you apply that to us as human beings, we have, on the output side, we have our results, how we perform happiness, the behaviors, the things that people see when you meet them, when you talk with them.
The process itself is a very complex thing. As a human being, I'm not a doctor doctor myself but so I was looking for something to see, okay, what's the main driver of our outputs of our behavior. And then quite rapidly I came in contact with the nervous system, the autonomic nervous system which is unconsciously driving a lot of our instinctively behaviors.
And looking into this nervous system, I then discovered HRV as being, let's say the biomarker to measure the health of our nervous system. But not only our nervous system also being related to our decision making capabilities, emotional self regulation. So a whole world opened up to me discovering that HRV is such a rich biomarker, telling us so much about in which state we are and how well we can adapt to challenges being thrown at us.
So in Fully Charged then I created this, this framework which then gives you input for your process. So really practical tips how you can improve your nervous system and your self regulation and the capacity of your nervous system and how that will influence then your, your output. That's in a way I try to make it a little bit easier but that's the framework which I created in, in Fully Charged.
[00:08:02] Speaker A: I love that. And so, and I love that, I love how you're taking your engineering and looking at the human body, you know, with, with that, that expertise. Obviously an organic body is going to be a little bit different than a, a computer or something like that. Even though we, we reach for those analogies very, very quickly. But I, I, that's what I, I really appreciate about our last conversation is that, that you know, really taking that, that expertise on the, the inputs, the outputs consuming, recharging, increasing and how heart rate variability, how you position that as a metric of how, how kind of successful people are in doing those key tasks for performance and health.
[00:08:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And maybe people listening to this podcast, they might be familiar with the concept of agile. It's something which is used in a corporate environment.
It teams, they work in an agile way, so they work in sprints to deliver a feature of a new product to a client. This methodology in my book I've created, I've applied this methodology to us as a human being. So actually at first you can measure how your current state of being, let's say with, with hrv and then you can experiment with Some lifestyle changes. Habits changes. And see after a couple weeks, okay, what's the, the effects on my baseline HRV value and should I change or adapt? So it's this mindset of continuous improvement that you apply to your own body just by seeing what works and what doesn't work. Of course, not becoming over obsessed with hrv, but just having it as an objective feedback mechanism alongside of course, how you feel as a human being.
[00:09:54] Speaker A: I love that. And I'm curious, you know, to kind of fill in the broad blank because I had to stop myself from getting all the updates on you because I wanted to do that on the podcast for, for those that may have listened to our first interview. But, but for my curiosity. So, so you, you published this book? Again, I cannot wait to consume it myself.
I, I've got the summaries and everything which you sent me, which was really helpful. I, I'm curious, you know, with the books I publish, you kind of publish a book. You're, you know, you kind of talk about the book on podcasts. You, you may integrate the book into some of the consulting coaching work that, that you do.
And I personally find that my, my thinking evolves. The, the book is kind of like a, a snapshot in time and then I work beyond the book. And I'm curious, I know you've got some new chapters to talk about today, but I just love to know, kind of like how you're thinking in your works involved since we last chatted a couple of years ago.
[00:11:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, very interesting question. And also something which I didn't properly reflect upon until, until today.
What I do notice, and I actually, I don't see a big difference compared to a couple of years ago. I give keynotes to bigger audiences. I do workshops with leadership teams.
And in all those keynotes and workshops, I still see that, let's say the knowledge about HRV amongst a general audience, a corporate audience most of the time, or a professional audience of people, it's quite limited. So when I ask people on, okay, these are the kind of biomarkers that you can measure like heart rate, your weight, your calorie intake, your sleep quality, your activities, your track.
What do you measure in general? HRV is somewhere still on the bottom of the list, which is in some way a good sign that there's still a lot of work to do for me to increase the awareness. And you see, there are of course always people who are, let's say, doing sports and they already heard of HRV and they see this biomarker, but There are still not many people who are generally aware of what HRV is and the potential power that lies into inside this biomarker. So it's always, I'm always happy on one hand to see that there is still some awareness that can be boosted with this, with these people.
So although I'm working a lot with HRV the last two years, I don't see already a big shift on HRV awareness.
[00:12:49] Speaker A: Yeah, which I thought just, you know, my, my dad, my perception there is. When we talked, it was, it was at a time I was talking to other folks in Europe as well and I, I, I sort of thought that there was going to be this boom in Europe. You all seemed a little bit more ahead of where we were in the States and it's then and we talked a little bit about this just kind of slow and steady progress with this where, where it still seems a little bit as an early adapter technology. Even though when I look out at some of the audiences I speak to, and I'm, I'm assuming you do too. I see a lot of Apple watches on people's wrists now. I think you and I would both agree we'd rather those be Garmins or a different device sometimes. But, but we will get into, we won't get into that, but, but just, you know, it's been interesting that it's happened slower than I would have predicted two years ago, especially after talking to you and some other folks in Europe that just seem to be a little bit more ahead of where we were.
[00:13:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, indeed. Indeed. I thought the progress would be, would be faster, but yeah, I think it will still take some time. Although artificial intelligence and the AI wave and waves which are, which we are going through and also a lot of corporations are going through might open a window of opportunity to collect this data. But we all know that health data to be collected in a professional environment is not always easy. You need consent of people, people having trusts. It's not that easy as a employer to collect this data. So I don't know whether we will arrive with big audiences all wearing their wearables in a corporate environment might be. So for some organizations where there's a lot of trust, but it will not be something which will happen overnight.
[00:14:53] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think folks like you doing the work that you do, we do a little bit of this as well, is so critical of having the outside person because, you know, I thought, you know, sharing HRV data would be a great measure of trust and psychological safety.
But even people that I know that work in good organizations. There's no way they're going to share their HRV data, even if they didn't know what HRV data was five minutes ago before I shared, I may have shared this with you. The first interview too is, you know, I find it funny here in the States that if you give people a $10 Starbucks gift card, then they'll share all their medical information with you. So there's like this balance that we, we can strike and with our horrible health care system over here, like can you get, you know, discounts on health care, can you get a gift card? Those sort of things. Like there's almost a trade off to get this in an interesting way in, you know, the States, at least that I've seen working around this issue.
[00:15:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, indeed, indeed. And I mostly work in Europe and what I do see there is that people do not often or always immediately openly talk about their health situation or whether they have had a good night's sleep or a bad night of sleep, but they're doing this HRV measurements and I didn't know, I don't know whether I mentioned that before, but I work with First Beat as a, as a tool which does multi day assessments and then gives you a report.
People having this report, their personal reports in their hands quite easily start sharing information with their colleagues because the report, it creates some distance from their personal situation. It feels like, oh, there's red, there's green. Is your report also having red and green? So it creates some distance from their own person and it opens the conversation. So it's really nice to see how these biometrical results can start a conversation amongst colleagues.
[00:16:58] Speaker A: Very cool. And also known that you work with a lot of leaders. I'm curious because if you go back, it seems like 20 years ago in some ways, but summer of 2000 I think a few years back, coming out of COVID we were closer to Covid at the time.
Burnout, at least in the States, was an all time high. I'm curious what you're seeing with some of the challenges the, the mental health situation in the States. We have our own fun political reality playing out every day in the news.
You know, it seems like, you know, when I look at statistics here, there's a lot of people really still struggling. And I'm curious, as you work, you know, in with corporate audiences and leaders, just sort of what, what are, what are you seeing challenge wise with the, the mental health of, of the workforce over in Europe?
[00:17:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I, the trend is still increasing. If I look at mental health in general. So if you look at the figures in, in Europe, by Belgium, Netherlands, where I can work most often, long term sick leave is still on the rise where there are multiple reasons why people are ill.
So I don't immediately see that there's like a change in the curve and or the direction of the trend curve.
And I also don't expect it to change. If I see the impact of artificial intelligence on jobs, the uncertainty it creates in a lot of industries, the complexity it creates for leaders, the impact on decision taking and the role between a human and a robot in a process, there's change is happening so fast with so many uncertainties that it's for leaders really difficult to navigate and it's often quite lonely at the top, they say. And yeah, so I think it will not immediately change in the coming years.
And slowly I see the discussion around health improving but also when you talk about cost savings and economical reasons then I often they say okay, these health programs, those are the first things which we take off our right list and we're not going to do it. So it's not always easy also to sell these kind of interventions, although they are really needed.
[00:19:40] Speaker A: Absolutely. All right, so I've delayed my own gratification long enough. Let's talk about those new chapters that you mentioned before we hit record. So with the new edition I would love to hear just a little bit of a preview of.
Yeah, what, what, what are these new chapters? What, what what are, what's the addition since the last time we we chatted.
[00:20:03] Speaker B: Yeah. So what I didn't mention was. But you already slightly mentioned this. So in my book I talked and all about the body battery and practical tips on how to improve your body battery and the energy that, that you have giving three energy principles, tips to improve your energy consumption. How can you improve your focus, your productivity, the way how you cope with your your energy during the day I give a lot of tips about in increasing your energy level and also on recharging your your energy level over the night with sleep with breaks.
In my new book I added a couple of new chapters. Firstly on artificial intelligence because there's no way around this now nowad little bit talking about okay, what's the impact of of AI? How can you use technology and because measuring HRV gives you data, what can you do with this data and how can you benefit from it from using the data that you collect on your own, on your own health. Because also the role as a coach, it changes and nowadays everyone just talks with the their chatbots people wear a garment of a whoop. It has an AI coach and in the morning it will tell you at what heart rate and intensity you need to train to get your optimal training levels. So what are the pros and the cons of using AI and what are the pitfalls?
So that's the chapter and then I also put something insight on the female energy level. A very sensitive topic for me as a man to talk about because on a hormonal level women are completely wired differently.
And I will not say to you that I'm an expert in female hormones or energy levels of women but I try to integrate some insights on how energy levels fluctuate for women during their menstrual cycle of 28 days. Because there are big differences between energy levels and also a little bit what type of activities can you then best plan during which phase of your 28 day cycle.
So that's something which I added also something about the change in energy across, across the lifespan. Yeah, I'm over 40 years old and I see that my energy levels are slightly different than when I was in my 20s or 30s. Not necessarily completely negative, but yeah, there are often changes of course in recovery when you age.
And I also added some things about chronotypes, chrono working on sleep and then some smaller changes here and there. So these are the, let's say the main changes.
[00:22:52] Speaker A: Yeah, nice. I'm curious because the AI topic is one that I'm fascinated about because as you know and as our audience knows.
Well if you've never seen it, I'll. I'll just share with folks the what we, you know, when, when somebody takes a reading with optimal. The, the amount of data that we get is astounding. Like because we're looking at our intervals, we're looking at. Then you can do all the different metrics and I, I believe we can. AI is going to allow us to do a lot more with that data and maybe find some really interesting insights that we didn't have.
So I think that there's. I don't know if we even know what questions to ask AI yet.
I don't know if AI knows enough to create its own questions of where we can go with this though I'm really excited about that future.
The interesting part that I'd love to get your kind of feedback on too is I know the health coaches are all the rage but as somebody who's kind of thought of that from a consumer perspective, it one I don't hear a whole lot of People loving their health coach.
I for everyone that thinks it's valuable. I get about nine people in different consumer products. So I'm not saying one is bad and one is good, but that are.
I either get the same feedback every day or it's totally off.
And I've just really struggled with how do we get enough input to give the right output. Kind of going back to your model with engineering is my thing is I don't want to tell somebody in a wheelchair to go for a walk.
If you take that as your kind of floor, that we're not going to do that.
You just think about the information you have to collect around mental health conditions, around physical conditions, around health conditions to ensure at least you're not doing any harm.
This is where I think the health coaches can really get in trouble. And you know, and I just love to get from your. Put your engineering hat on here with, with AI and like, where do you see the strengths and weaknesses of, you know, an AI health coach? Assuming that we're giving the input of at least a heart rate variability reading?
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I either did two sides on the, on the, on the coin of AI and I think there are a lot of, lot of positive things.
It can help you to detect early signs of fatigue.
It can predict maybe periods of higher stress loads. It can give you very personalized recommendations with the input and the information that you have been collecting over a period of time.
So it gives you a whole information overload. Often that's what I see, a lot of valuable things, but difficult to make it really actionable because what I see and also working with people, I'm both a consumer and I coach people on behavioral change. Is that really this aspect for behavioral change and finding the sweet pot of motivating someone to really change their behavior is something where I see that AI is not yet there. You need, in my opinion, a human in front of you which can connect on a human level to translate these insights. As a coach, it's very interesting for me to get all these insights and put them in an AI tool and just get the outcome of a person and the reading. But then going into a conversation with someone and helping this person to understand it for himself and to really let it land and then do something with it. It's something that AI cannot do in my opinion. You need the human interaction and the frequencies of humans coming together.
[00:27:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. And that's where in my field of mental health we've long known that outcomes are, are mostly based on the relationship, you know, and I think that, that, that understanding, that empathy that, that, you know, somebody might want a coach to kind of, kind of gently, I would say, but yell at them to get their butt out of bed and go for a, for a run if they're training for an ironman or something like that. But that, that's totally, you know, for a lot of people that's just going to lead to resistance. And I don't, I'm not saying I can't get there at some point, but I do think that that's, and I love hearing that from an engineer that you also see, you know, the need for you and a coach and a human to be available within this system to I think offer support that I can't really do in a way that I feel is genuine, at least in my own experience. And I, I think.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: Yeah, indeed.
[00:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Really? Really?
[00:28:15] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, sorry. And indeed, yeah. The human skills of interaction will become increasingly important in a coaching relationship. So I, I think AI will, will be able to replace a lot of data crunching which you were doing before with Excel sheets and I don't know what, and creating these insights and reports, but then the, the skill of connecting with, with someone on a human level and, and yeah, that's something which will become increasingly important.
[00:28:47] Speaker A: Excellent. Well, I'm curious now that, that, you know, you got the book into English.
You know, your, your career has continued since we last chatted in the first book. You know, the, the, the initial publication continued to, to grow and evolve.
I'm just curious, I mean we're already talking about AI and your additional chapters and I just, you know, let's, let's be upfront. We're two guys talking about women's health. But I, I think that insight that, that you have, you know, if I can use your language, the battery is just different, you know, and, and I think the fact that we finally got there is a healthcare system is a really good thing and probably should have done it 50 years ago. But you know, that's a really awesome insight to have.
I'm just kind of curious where you see, where are your next steps?
Where do you see your work going? What questions do you have as you get this book to a wider audience and continue to evolve in your career and your work as well?
[00:29:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:29:58] Speaker A: And are you going to run any additional like 200 kilometer races? Like.
So let's, let's do the personal and the professional because your personal is interesting as well.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How I see my own work evolving is I'm increasingly interested in the self Awareness of people because I think I work often with leaders and leadership and the impact of a good leader often starts with how much he or she is self aware knowing that how they work internally and how they are creating impact and how their behavior creates impact on others.
And my entry point is actually often held and using HRV and I can connect with leaders because it's hrv, it's measurable. Often they enter from earlier performance mindset. Oh still another thing to optimize. So leaders want to optimize their business, their processes. Oh now they can optimize themselves but for me it's an entry point to increase self awareness around how their lifestyle is impacting their own energy levels but also how they are interacting then with the environment and with others both on a professional level and a personal level. So also the past years I've been doing some trainings on, on nlp. For example I'm a practitioner on neuro linguistic programming on changing behavior of people.
I just followed an enneagram course. It's like MBTI and Insights discovery, this personality typing to also connect not only the, the the nervous system, not only focus on the nervous system but also on the connection with the awareness, the cognitive awareness and the interaction of the two. And so I'm more and more seeing myself going towards leadership development as a whole where the nervous system functioning and self regulation and increasing your nervous system capacity is the foundation to get started.
But where yeah the brain also has an important role to play and, and that's more where I see myself evolving towards and I'm calling this leadership capacity and how you can navigate complexity and uncertainty and the nervous system is the foundation for this. But there are other things at play.
[00:32:39] Speaker A: Beautiful. I'm curious too. Let's hit the personal side because as somebody who thinks a lot about this I just kind of.
You may be running a 200 kilometer race tomorrow so I won't put that out. But knowing that you got a couple kids and a wife and a family, I'm assuming that that's probably you know, a little harder to do and fit into your schedule. But I just also just love to talk about as somebody thinks about this kind of how your work informs your kind of really just daily personal routine as well as you dove into the science and you know, are a role model for other people. I'm just curious what are some of those challenges you're taking on nowadays and how, how do you really approach your own health and wellness with all the knowledge you've gained over the years?
[00:33:32] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, good Good question. Again.
I, I, there is always a knowing doing gap, you know, a lot of stuff. And the more stuff you know, the more you know that you don't know anything at all.
[00:33:47] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:33:48] Speaker B: And the more difficult it becomes.
So let's say I had this period of doing a lot of ultra races, endurance races, and I was doing them for a reason, reasons that I often did not know, which were those reasons.
But they were also for me a journey of often of self discovery through hardship, through challenge, discovering how my body functions, but also finding my own way in life. I'm divorced, I remarried.
So I had of course like anyone else, my own struggles. I have two kids.
These endurance races often brought me conditions where I could challenge myself and see how I could learn from this challenge and what I could learn from myself. That's one thing to mention also I have on the personal side often been into in this performance mindset myself trying to make a career, trying to become the best person, unconsciously being driven by the voice of a father where it was never enough. So a lot of childhood developmental traumas, maybe also being part of my own journey and these endurance races were the way how to express it on the outside.
So that being said, I'm currently in a phase in my life and maybe that's where also my, my midlife crisis comes into play. I don't know. But I, I noticed that or I, I know that. Okay. This external performance driven challenges are not giving me any real life answers. And that's from a philosophical point of view. You have all the answers within yourself and that's the biggest journey to take in life. So currently I'm trying to find ways how to explore, let's say, my inner world also through some physical challenges or physical exercises like for example, free diving, freediving, it's a very interesting sport where you have to dive deep on one breath of air and where the performance comes from relaxation, not from pushing yourself because the more you're relaxed under the water, the better you will be able to dive. So it's a very contradictory, it's a very big contradiction with how I was used to perform in the old days, but learning me a lot about myself about staying calm under pressure.
So a very interesting sport to, to perform. So I'm now looking for ways how to dive deeper within myself, let's say and not immediately going to push for another 200 kilometer race, although I have some races in mind.
But let's, but let's see, let's see.
[00:36:48] Speaker A: Well, freediving is interesting because it is, you know, it's not something I think a typical person would just find themselves like it's not pickleball, it's not tennis. It is, it is as far as I understand the haven't listened because in our space the performance spatial that there's a lot to learn from free diving I found and you know, a lot of potential danger there. Even though I know you try to mitigate that that as much as possible. So it's interesting that you're still, you're still pushing yourself beyond those barriers but bringing a little bit more of the mental psychological side to your extreme ish activities.
[00:37:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And for example, when I was running an ultra in the desert, I could easily shut myself off from my own body and I could just keep on pushing and it could help me to, to, to be successful in the race. But for free diving it doesn't work. You need to have self awareness around your body. You need to be able to, to listen to your body. And so it's a whole different way of approaching physical exercise. And, and from all the, the things that I'm also writing about in my book about sleep, about movement, about meditation, all these different practices, there is one practice which has learned me the most and that's, that's breath work.
And yeah, I'm a Wim Hof instructor so there are breathing methods involved in Winhof.
I'm working with coherence breathing with. There's so many flavors on breath work. And yeah, one thing you need to practice for freediving is, is yeah. Learning to regulate yourself with your, with your breath and, and to learn the essence of, of breathing and not breathing. So yeah, it's a beautiful practice also to then learn others about.
[00:38:59] Speaker A: Very cool. Well my friend, it is always a great pleasure to talk to you.
Congratulations on the book again, fully charged.
You said publication day was July 3rd, right? Yeah, in the U.S. so we'll put some links in the show notes and just to help get the word out there, I can't wait to read it. So congratulations and I hope, you know, maybe two years from now it was funny, I remember last time we were talking during the Euro soccer tournament and now I don't know, I didn't want to bring up the World cup too much because I watch your team play and I'm not going to get too excited about the US yet when this probably comes out, people will know a lot more about the results but I'm not going to start talking trash yet.
But my friend, it's so good to see you. Congratulations. And I want you to write another book so I can interview you again about how you think about this. And I love how you apply it to your own life. So thank you very much for coming back on the show and the best of luck with the English publication.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Thanks. Thanks for having me, Matt.
[00:40:14] Speaker A: All right. As always, you can find show notes. Again, these are very important show notes. So you can find those probably where you're listening to this or watching this on YouTube and you can find
[email protected] thank you so much and we will see you soon.
