[00:00:00] Speaker A: Welcome to the Heart Rate Variability podcast. Each week we talk about heart rate variability and how it can be used to improve your overall health and wellness. Please consider the information in this podcast for your informational use and not medical advice. Please see your medical provider to apply any of the strategies outlined in this episode. Heart Rate Variability Podcast is a production of Optimal LLC and optimal HRV. Check us
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Welcome, friends, to Heart Rate variability podcast. I'm Matt Bennett. I'm excited to have Harry here as a guest today. He allowed me to not mispronounce his last name, which I don't want to do. So I appreciate him already for that. I also am excited to have Harry on the show because I read his book anxiety to amazing in 60 days.
The man thinks deeply about a lot of things, including anxiety HRV, and has put together a really comprehensive program.
So Harry, I'm excited to have you on the show today, and just, if you could, just a quick introduction of yourself to our audience.
[00:01:20] Speaker B: Sure. And thank you very much, Matt. I also the compliment that I think deeply. That's wonderful.
To briefly introduce myself. My career path is not linear.
It has followed a series of dog legs with me taking different roles over time. And some of the changes were intentional pivots, while others were unexpected and forced upon me.
I started off pretty young. At 20, I got into a job selling pharmaceutical products. We used to be called medical representative way back in India. And I progressed quite well and ended up owning a pharmaceutical company, manufacturing different formulations. And at that time, me and my business partner, we were both young. We had lots and lots of enthusiasm and a very minimal amount of discretion. So we kind of, we kind of overreached and ran the business into ground.
So, and I went away again into employment, became a senior manager. And what have you tried again to resurrect? The business didn't work. So I said, okay, let me go and make a fresh start. So I immigrated to New Zealand with my young family. Not very young. The children were grown up, they were in fourth and fifth grades, and my wife and a couple of $1,000 in my pocket. But New Zealand was extremely kind and I did quite well. My children did well, my wife did well, and I was selling mortgages. Mortgage broker, from pharmaceuticals to mortgage broker.
And again, I was pretty successful. But the natural progression was I went into real estate and I'm incorrigible. I again started a business and owned a real estate company. But this time I was pretty successful, acquired a few properties, so I'm not too bothered about my retirement. There is enough I've accumulated during that period, and we did quite well. But then the global financial crisis came and put paid to a number of businesses across the world. And one of those which was affected was our business. The whole investment property business got affected a bit.
So it was again a time, one door closed. So I said, oh, yeah, what do I do? But on the side, I've always been practicing meditation, mindfulness, different forms of meditation, zen meditation, vipassana and insight meditation and all that. Plus also I was studying psychology as a hobby.
And I said, okay, let me make a big pivot here. So I kind of went into academia, so I got my grade, I graduated with psychology major, and then we came to Australia because our children were here. And in Australia I said, okay, let me pursue it further. So I did my masters, and as luck would have it, I went into and went and acquired a PhD. But the reason. And I investigated mindfulness in my PhD.
So I went in with the hope that I will find some kind of scientific validation for the practices that I was already doing.
So I ended up investigating mindfulness and the authorities were kind enough to give me a PhD degree. So I have a prefix now, doctor, congratulations. My name. Thank you. And during my PhD, I kind of. There was so much hype around mindfulness. And as I went deeper and deeper, I found that mindfulness alone doesn't give sustained relief from either psychological distress or cultivate sustainable happiness. So I started looking around for other modalities. That's when I got exposed to heart rate variability and also heart rate variability, biofeedback, positive neuroplasticity. So I combined all this, and as you have read in the book, I developed a protocol that combines all these things with ancient wisdom as a means to manage and transform psychological distress and also cultivate sustainable happiness, both.
[00:06:48] Speaker A: So you look great for being. You have to be 140 years old to have lived that life, so you look really good. Something about the protocol must be working, because I know how long it takes to get a PhD alone. And the fact you were in pharmaceuticals and real estate before that, you've lived a full life, my friend. So thank you.
[00:07:11] Speaker B: Yeah, it was enriching.
I've learned from every single pick in my pick in the backside or in the gut. I said, oh, yeah, I made a mistake. Make a pivot or learn from it. Luckily, I have been able to, and here I am in front of you. But one more small thing.
I started the whole thing, my academia, when I was 58 or so.
So by the time I completed my PhD, it was 66.
I was 66. And then I said, do I do a postdoctoral study, investigate my protocol?
But that was immediately after Covid, and all the universities were bleeding. Nobody had any money for postdoc scholarships. I said, to hell with it. Both protocols, mindfulness meditation, as well as heart rate variability, positive neuroplasticity, they garnered so much amount of scientific evidence independently. I said, okay, let me take it directly to the people.
And that's when I thought, okay, let me write a book and do a podcast with Matt.
[00:08:28] Speaker A: I appreciate being a small part of that journey, my friend. So I'm curious about. You know, I'll ask kind of two questions here and let you roll with it. One is, I'm just kind of curious. As you were looking at mindfulness, I would love to hear a little bit more about maybe where you saw it falling short, not being maybe what every. It wasn't everything. It wouldn't. It wouldn't fix everything or the shortcomings there and how HRV. HRV biofeedback kind of helped you to fill some of the gaps that you saw. Where we're missing from mindfulness.
[00:09:09] Speaker B: Great question.
I put it this way.
When mindfulness was introduced, the great man John Cabotson introduced into western psychology, I think, 1989, something like that.
And according to his own words, he wanted to introduce buddhist practices into western audience. To western audience. But he was a little bit worried that he may turn away western audience if he mentioned Buddhism. So he introduced mindfulness based stress reduction, but he got in most of the practices from Buddhism.
But what happened later on was mindfulness was plucked out of all the rest of the practices, and it took on a life of its own, went away. So it's just mindfulness practice and nothing else. Or you add it into different therapies, but.
So that's where the beneficial effects were not lasting. Even mindfulness based stress reduction, that is the most investigated, researched, and validated protocol also doesn't have a sustainable effect or sustained effect. It falls short, even six weeks. It doesn't seem to have the same effect size.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: Is that when somebody stops a practice or is that with continued practice?
[00:10:50] Speaker B: I've got another peak on that.
[00:10:52] Speaker A: Okay. Okay. I've seen that. Like, the effect kind of drop off after practice, though.
[00:10:58] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. You hit the nail on the head. People drop off practice unless they get something.
[00:11:05] Speaker A: Wouldn't it be great, though? Hey, I practiced for 15 years. I'm done. And I.
[00:11:11] Speaker B: It's not it's not. You have done, you sat on the cushion for 30 minutes today and you're done for your life. No way. It's not going to work that way. You just need to get it integrate. But the important thing where I found hard rate variability, boom. Was that biofeedback, the, the question of biofeedback, people can see objective numbers of how it is it actually your, your physiology or your inner state is improving every single day. So that motivates people to continue practicing. So to just go back to your question, two reasons why the benefits are not long lasting. One, people take it for granted, and when, when it lacks freshness, people just take it for granted. So they don't do it with the same diligence. They do it initially. So it kind of slowly fizzles away. It's like going to a retreat or an inspiring talk, inspiring book. Oh, you say, my life is sorted, mate. I've done. Now, now on. There is nothing going to stop me. And then the busyness of life gets in and then you whole thing dissipates. So that's what happens to this practice as well. So one is the interest lags and people are not as diligent. And also the effect of the effect size also drops off. Consequently, the effect sizes are great.
As soon as eight weeks, which is the norm for both mindfulness based cognitive behavioral therapy as well as MBSR, immediately the effect size are pretty high, and then after six weeks, they're down.
So that's where I thought, high heart rate variability. Biofeedback offers another modality that can supplement, complement and also strengthen what mindfulness is doing. So that's the long answer.
[00:13:24] Speaker A: I gotta ask you a follow up to that because, you know, I look and I just, I've got the table of content open right here. I mean, you go Buddhism, stoicism. I mean, it is a. I love how you blend these, I would say, complementary philosophies in with the science and beautifully weave those two things in throughout the book. I wonder, how is your journey into psychology? Obviously philosophy.
I don't know whether Buddhism as a religion or a philosophy. I know people go back and forth. I just look at him as a scientist, uh, more than anything else than a teacher. But I. I'm curious how, like the autonomic nervous system and the science behind heart rate variability as you got into your own practice, and yet you speak about this really eloquently in the book as well. The vagal nerve, the parasympathetic nervous system. I'm just curious how that informs how you look at yourself and other human beings.
[00:14:31] Speaker B: Excellent.
It's a terrific question. I just need to sort out my own thoughts to answer that. But anyway, let me attempt to answer them.
I don't look at Buddhism as a religion. It is, it has taken the connotations of religion, but I look at it as a scientist. And most of buddhist explanations have been scientifically validated. And the mindfulness practice itself has come from Buddhism as a part of what is famously called the noble Eightfold path. Now, just to very briefly say what it is, it has got three sections. One section is moral conduct, how you conduct, conducting yourself in your lives, how aligned you are with your own values.
That's one part. And the second part is your meditation practices. Concentration, the effort you put in mindfulness, etcetera, is the second part. And the third part is actually gaining wisdom from whatever you have done. And the first part resembles very much the stoic philosophy that if you can just kind of bring it down to one single thing. The Stoic philosophy is based on one thing, make control what you can and don't worry about what you can't. And also, as the Mormon prayer says, to know, to have the wisdom, to know what is what, right. And Buddhism, in a, in a more explicit manner, does the same thing. Buddha is a very practical person, person, guard, whatever teacher, he lays out all the steps so that, that's where it starts. Now, if you, if you take that into this thing, fantastic. The conduct is good, the teachings are good. You need to have the wisdom. But how do you go about it? How do you practice mindfulness? So that's where you start. Mindfulness is a kind of a top down, top down modality. So to say, you change your thoughts and thereby change your emotions. And that's what all these new wave therapies, like CBT or MBCT or act DBT, all these are basing this thing. Change your thoughts, and then you change your emotions and therefore cultivate your happiness. But then heart rate changes the game. It goes from bottom up, the high heart rate oscillations that you can generate by doing two practices that are so simple, anybody can do it.
You generate those rhythms, the heart rhythms that then go and entrain the brain. So these are two very complementary practices, one going up from bottom up, one coming down from top down. So that's where I thought, there is a great synergy.
I also went a little deeper to understand why I have, why have people not combined both the things?
Traditionally, emotion and thought and cognition have been thought of? As two separate domains.
And therefore, although the goal of both kinds of practices is alleviating stress and enhancing well being, they went in parallel lines till the modern science started finding out that the neural architecture, the structures in the brain that are responsible for cognition as well as emotion, they are interlinked.
So doing either of the practices starts strengthening those messages. For example, there are bidirectional connections between the prefrontal cortex and amygdala. The emotions in amygdala send messages to the prefrontal cortex and influence the thoughts. Similarly, the thoughts, uh, influence amygdala because there is a direct connection. Yeah. Uh, only thing is, amygdala is the first cab off the rank, so to say something happens and amygdala is gone. Yeah. And the prefrontal corps prefrontal cortex is still taking a nap. So the. The whole idea is to strengthen both. So that.
But the other thing that most people don't focus on is align. Living your life aligned with your values that you cherish, you could do both these. But if you are living a life that is not aligned with your core values, for example, somebody, you see the WhatsApp messages of all the old people like mine. Everybody sends WhatsApp messages that talk about how the great virtues. Everybody wants to do that. Everybody wants to be honest, everybody wants to. Wants to be kind. But if you are living a life without aligning to them, then there is stress. Yeah. So you have to work on that as well. That's where I combine that. You just can't do practices and just leave it. But I'll add one more small thing that hacked harks back to your first question. Why do practices, why do the beneficial effects drop off? The reason is, if there is a not, if there is no routine or a ritual that is associated with any practice, it will drop off. For example. For example, one of the things we do, it's a habit. We get up, brush our teeth.
[00:20:49] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:20:50] Speaker B: That. That's a habit. You will do it. Come what way you will do it. It doesn't drop off. Why? Because it has become a habit. So you need to cultivate, you need to put in routines that will keep your practice going. And as you've read the book, so I've described very three or four very simple routines that will remind you, hey, mate, you have to practice this. You have to do this. So it'll keep reminding. So, living a life with aligned to your values, doing these practices, and also having routines that will.
That will keep the practices going. And I believe that's the prescription for enduring happiness. You can sustain happiness by doing that. Anyway, that's my take. Yeah.
[00:21:39] Speaker A: And I love how you brought values into this. It's something that's been, like, I resisted a little bit to write down my value. I heard, like, oh, it's just kind of, I don't know. It's. And then I like some authors that I really respect about probably about 20 years ago now. It's like, okay, like Daniel Siegel and others are saying, you need to write down your values. So. And, you know, during my mindfulness practice, I repeat them every morning. And, whoo. Living those suckers has been a game changer, because I think, you know, it's just something that if those are, if those are truly your guiding principles, it just gives you a mirror to hold up certain behaviors, certain ways of being in the world, too, and say, hey, is this aligned in my values, or do I need to look at this behavior? And not that it was anything for me, that was unethical that I was doing, but it was like, okay, how do I spend my time?
What food do I put in my mouth? What car do I buy?
Having those values and reinforcing them has just, it's made me a better person. I haven't always liked sometimes what it means, because I like the old behavior, too. It just, you know, the misalignment, you know, I know I'm healthier on all levels because of living that life. But it is a powerful piece, as my friends can tell you. They're a little annoyed about me because of it. But I. I love how that got included into your overall thinking about not just anxiety, but I believe mental health and overall health as well.
[00:23:25] Speaker B: May I add one small thing here, please.
I'll give you a small example. You just mentioned that it's not as if you are unethical, but there are a. There are certain gray areas. Ethics is such a vast. This thing. There are some gray areas. I'll give you a very small example.
You want to be honest, right? But select one example, which I've actually given in the book as well. You don't want to go to office on Monday just for the heck of it. You don't want to go. You just want to lie down in bed. But do you have the courage to call your boss and tell. Tell the boss I'm not coming to the office because. Because I don't feel like. No, you camouflage it with some excuse. So this is nothing major. You're still ethical. Nobody is coming to any harm if you don't go to the office. World is not going to fall, not going to end.
But that's where conscience is so fragile. You can easily smother it.
Nobody knows, and nobody would know, but then you would know. I should have told my boss the real reason. So that that eats away, that corrodes the system. So you. You got to nourish them, cherish them, and then nourish them. Difficult. I'm not saying it's easy. I.
But as I've described in the book, there are ways you can. Ways you can develop and consolidate a few values and let them be, become guiding principles of your life.
There will be less stressful situations if you're able to do that.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:25:16] Speaker B: Sorry. I got digressed.
[00:25:18] Speaker A: Yeah, well, no, it's. Because it isn't. It's not easy. I mean, that's the thing that I find interesting about values is, oh, it's kind of a, let's. Let's write down our values. But if you take them seriously, it is. That phone call is, do I tell a little white lie to my boss?
You know, how do I, you know, just those little things that, you know, as you stray, there is a loss there in some ways, and it may be bigger, maybe small, but, you know, it feels good to live a life mostly aligned with my values. I'm not good. I'm always striving to be better. And I, as soon as I, like, tackle one big thing, another one's just waiting there for me with a smile on its face to say, hey, my turn for your existential crisis this month, Matt. So. But I appreciate that. I would love for you to talk a little bit, because, you know, this is, you know, as far as on the spectrum of books, a real.
I don't know. There is a self help component to the book as it is something that guides a reader through a structured protocol. But you can tell it's written by a PhD in psychology. It is not just, hey, take vitamin D supplements and you're going to be fine for the rest of your life. There is work to be done in this protocol. And I appreciate that because so many, and why I avoid them as a section in the bookstore is like, it's not as simple as drink this shake or, you know, go for a walk. Walking could be a part of it, but there is a combination of factors and there's work involved, especially if you're struggling. If you're doing okay, you can probably pick and choose from your protocol where you could be even more okay. But if you're struggling, that there is work to be done to take that work. And I'm talking to a former pharmaceutical rep who, you know, at least here in the states, we love to throw pills at people because it's almost the way to get our result without doing the work. And, you know, that's. I don't even want to open up that can of worms on the pharmaceutical, but I'd love for you to talk about. So our listeners get a feel for, you know, how do you see the protocols, you know, and just some of those, if you've worked people through them, you know, how do people respond to them? Just kind of your experience in implementing and maybe coaching or working with people through a very specific sort of, and I would say intensive as a complement protocol to better health.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Okay, thank you. I will do that. Let me start by actually mentioning the name of the protocol. The protocol is called holistic approach to sustainable happiness in 60 days. That is acronym of hashem 60.
Easy to remember. So it's a 60 day protocol.
You remember the old psychotherapies, the talk therapies were time unlimited. They used to go on and on and on and on. And later on people found that that's no good. So then came time limited therapies that both the therapist as well as the patient are accountable to achieve a desired outcome within a specified period. And that's the principle I have applied to my protocol.
That is, within 60 days, wherever you're starting from, you got to reach a certain level of stress relief or whatever you're working on, but happier than what you started 60 days back. It's for individuals, readers to decide to where they are and where they have to go, which I would be offering in individual mentorship that I will be starting very shortly.
But basically it has four components. First, protocol, you got to decide on what values you're going to live your life by. That's the first section of the protocol, value clarification. And then the second part is the only one which is done on a cushion, so to say, practicing heart rate variability. Biofeedback with or without a device to give you biofeedback.
Recent meta analysis has shown that even without biofeedback, the benefits seem to be pretty good.
I don't know personally about that. I've always used a biofeedback and mindful, heart centered mindfulness meditation. I'll just come back to this point in a sec. And the last part is cultivating the values that you want to live by. And a very limited set. I have described four values.
Everybody has to choose their own values. But I've given a guideline of four values. Uh, I call it, uh, patience, acceptance, contentment, and, um, uh, and kindness. Uh, these form. So each value to be practiced for 15 days. So in 60 days time, you are. You are kind of integrating all these values into your, um, into your psyche, every cell of your body, and. And whatever. Neural architecture, positive neuroplasticity. Rick Hansen is very famous for repeating this. He says you have to repeat something several times, 1012 times before it gets into your neural architecture. And that's what is the basis for this one, that you have to cultivate something repeatedly to come to that level. So to keep the freshness, I've. I've said, cultivate four values over 60 days. Afterwards, the momentum will take. Take you along.
Now, just going back to. I said, I'll come back to mindfulness meditation.
Now, unfortunately, mindfulness itself has taken a life of it, taken on a life of its own.
It's a multi billion dollar industry now.
Everything from a five minute app to a long eight week practice is supposed to do the same thing. Come again? It doesn't do it.
You got to sitting on a cushion for 30 minutes, you come off and say, oh, yeah, I feel great. But then you step out, you get into the traffic, and there is a car blocking. Somebody is cutting across your cardinal, and then you lost it. So it has to be done with a purpose. So that's what I've described, mindfulness, just like that. It gives you that momentary calm, which is great. I'm not disputed that which is great continuously. If you're doing, maybe you'll develop more and more calmness. But then if you align it with the purpose.
So that's the reason I call purpose driven mindfulness.
You want to eat better. There are the fantastic app, mindful eating, so you become a better eater or mindfulness, something else. So there are, you have to align it with a purpose. And because it is associated with heart rate variability, it is heart centered, comes from the heart. Mind is always trying to find reasons why you should not be doing it. Heart is in the present moment. It says, go practice it. So that's how I've described and developed the protocol, and this is described in the book. So you go from value clarification to incorporating it into your daily life with a few routines that will help you help jog your memory. You're running around, you say, oh, yeah, at this time, you should do that jumping. Do it.
[00:33:41] Speaker A: Love it. I love it.
Yeah. And I love the integration of the biofeedback piece. Because I know for me, and I think for a lot of, you know, people I talk to, it's. It's also getting that data. It's seeing that, hey, you know, yeah, I'm in. Whether you're using optimal zone or coherence or whatever metric you're using, is that this is actually having the impact that I wanted to have. I'm actually seeing that ventral vagal break or call it low frequency or whatever you want to term it, but we're getting that and seeing that improvement over time because that was one of my struggles with mindfulness is. Yeah, like you said, I felt better than the moment. And then I got busy or, you know, I stopped it. It took me starts and stops ever since. Like, I was in the, you know, like high school and middle school. Like, I knew I needed to do this way back then. And yet it took another probably 1012 years before I sat on my butt every day. And, boy, that was, that didn't just change my state, it started to change my traits. That's that, you know, the positive neuroplasticity at work there is. I finally felt that, you know, at the end, and that's a. That's what I love about that integrated piece to this and where the science is just measuring. I think everything that is sort of special about mindfulness practice and meditation is that it helps for us who need, need that at least that good sense that, yeah, this is a good investment of time today, tomorrow, the next day, the next day, and the next day until you get to that 60 day point where you start to take a breath on accident and that piece kind of comes in to you in that moment, which is. That was the sales pitch for me. It's like, oh, wait a minute, I can. I got a tool now that I can use. That's what I. That's what I love about all of what you're talking about.
[00:35:46] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you.
[00:35:48] Speaker A: Awesome. So I always like to ask authors this next question, and, boy, I'm excited to ask you this one as well, is I love writing books. Sometimes I think I just write books for me. And if somebody else wants to read it, great. Because when you put your ideas down on paper, you got to think about them in a different way. I do a lot of speaking.
It's one way to put something on a PowerPoint and then do a song and dance. And when you have to write it down on paper, know that it's going to be on paper. If somebody buys the book, as long as that book exists, it's going to be typed out in that. I can't go in and erase everything from their print copy at least. I just kind of wonder, as you went through this process, and I mean a substantial book, I think we're 300 2030 pages packed full of great material. I just kind of wonder if there was any epiphanies or insights as you were writing along the way, that you kind of came up with that, maybe even surprised you as you were putting all these pieces together.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Epiphany. Epiphany for me happened before I started. In fact, that's what, that's what got me onto the book.
For me.
I went through everybody of my generation, started off with Dale Carnegie's books, and then slowly waited through different philosophies. Stephen Covey's eight habits, which was a kind of a game changer for me at one point of time, then something else, then something else and something else. The epiphany was, for me, two things. One is that everybody is trying to teach you a way to find happiness. Yeah, from Dalai Lama, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, whoever it is, the great teachers, they've all taught different ways, but ultimately they're all teaching you to be happy, and they're all teaching you to be kind, compassionate, generous, and all these things. So the paths are different, the goal is still the same. So that was the first thing I said, I dont have to search so many philosophy, theyre all saying the same thing. So that was the first thing. And the second thing was, which was even more powerful, as far as I was concerned.
I was chasing happiness. Let me fine do this, let me do this. Let me see if I can become more happy.
Then on one fine morning, I said, im doing everything wrong. The reason is you cannot chase happiness.
You have to create circumstances within your own heart and mind and body for happiness to arrive. It will come. It will come like a butterfly and land in your heart gently. But you have got to, it's like a helicopter. You need a helipad for that. It has to land there gently. So that was the biggest moment. I said, well, I'm not chasing happiness. I'm doing things the best way I can to be the best I can. Happiness will follow, and I can tell you that it has followed. I'm a much happier man. It's not as if I don't get stressed or angry, but their periods are so few and far between.
And also, I recognize that something is had not right. I immediately reset and refresh and rebound.
But generally, a happy man and I don't chase happiness. Happiness will come, will come.
[00:39:45] Speaker A: What you just said about the butterfly, you got to write that down and send it to me because that was beautifully said.
[00:39:55] Speaker B: That's how I visualize it said, okay, make a nice, nice beautiful space and the happiness will gently alight. It'll settle down. It'll settle down.
[00:40:08] Speaker A: I love that. Well, I don't know what more of a beautiful way to end the interview except to give you just a few minutes.
Who should buy the book? Where do they find it at?
Let's do it. Now that we got the butterfly landed on our hearts, tell us how to buy the book.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: Yeah, the book has been available for about a month now. It's available on. Thank you.
It's available on all the major retailers, starting with Amazon, which is the number one retailer. Amazon, both Kindle version as well as the paperback version. And of course Barnes and Noble Kobo. And I assume it is available in Apple and Google as well. Honestly, I've not checked. I have to concede that very shortly an audiobook also will be available.
It's getting recorded and all the chapters are done. We're just doing the minor edits improvements. So audiobook will be available as well. So if you don't mind, you can paste the link for the book in the.
You can just go to Amazon, check anxiety to amazing, amazing in 60 days.
[00:41:39] Speaker A: And you'll find it ahh mazing. So just in case you don't do it, then there is that spelling there. You probably get it regardless. But just in case. And we will put a link in the show notes for sure and other information.
[00:41:55] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:41:56] Speaker A: That as well. So Harry, I appreciate the book. It was a gift to me. I tell you, I was a little scared. I opened it up and I was like, oh, I got 330 pages to get through before this meeting and it just, I'm not going to say it flew by because whenever you're looking at stoic philosophy, I got to slow down a little bit. But it was a, it was a really great read and actually really timely for me as well as I'm working on a couple projects that I may see your name pop up in the bibliography of those works. So I appreciate you, appreciate your work and sharing it with our audience.
[00:42:36] Speaker B: Thank you. The hardest chapter really is heart rate variability chapter. That's the hardest. I had to struggle to keep the signs at a as I wouldn't call it a low as lay level as possible.
[00:42:52] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:42:52] Speaker B: And that's the reason I pulled out a lot of science. That neural correlates that end up in heart rate variability. I pull them out into appendices for people who are more interested in reading, but that's the toughest, that's the densest science chapter.
[00:43:09] Speaker A: Yeah, you did a beautiful job weaving that in.
[00:43:15] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you very much.
[00:43:17] Speaker A: Yeah, I think a way that there was, you did a great job. You pulled out what you needed to pull out so it flowed. And as a fellow author, you did a great job. And as an HRV nerd, I felt like I didn't even necessarily need the appendix because you did such a good job with the science and the flow of the book as well. So congratulations. Like I said, thank you. Anxiety to amazing in 60 days. Harry, I'm glad to call you now a friend on this journey and appreciate you and your work.
[00:43:48] Speaker B: Welcome. Thank you very much. Thanks for having me, Matt. I enjoyed a few of your episodes.
I will endeavor to listen to all the episodes or many of the episodes that you have put.
It's 185, is it?
[00:44:04] Speaker A: Yeah, I think we're close to 180, so we're getting there. I'm not sure we're quite there yet, but it's, it's been a great journey and to meet people like yourself who we may have never crossed paths if it wasn't for this podcast.
[00:44:19] Speaker B: So it's don't bet on that. Our paths will cross.
I loved speaking to you, and I will make sure that I cross your path at some stage.
[00:44:30] Speaker A: There we go. I look forward to that. And as always, you can find show notes, get the links to Harry's book, everything
[email protected]. dot thank you and thank you, Harry. And we'll see everybody next week.
[00:44:41] Speaker B: Thank you. Have a great day. Bye.
